Down to 3 choices.....

[ViS]

After a fair bit of research (a lot of it conflicting unfortunately), I've narrowed my DSLR choice to 3 contenders.

With the lenses I'm going to get and approximate prices:

Pentax K20D with 18-250mm pentax lens - $1700

Canon 450D with 18-200mm Canon Lens - $1700

Nikon D90 with 18-105 Nikon lens - $1750

I'm forced to go the 450D over the 40D due to price. The 40D is around $2100 with the Canon lens, but closer to the same price with a sigma lens. From all accounts, they say the canon lens is a fair bit better.

I could possibly go down a model in each brand (say a K10D / K200D or D80), but I'm a fan of the live view option, even if I may not always use it. I could also reduce the price a bit by buying a Sigma / Tamron lens and body-only, but by the time you negotiate a kit price with brand lenses, the price is about the same.

Here are the main points that would make me lean one way or the other:

While the D90 looks like a nice bit of kit (and the HD video might come in handy with young kids), I'm not sure if the 18-105mm lens would be good enough as an "all around" lens compared to the 18-200mm or 18-250mm lenses.

The K20D seems to have the specs closer to the 40D or D300 and the waterproof body seals are a nice touch. It reviews well on some sites, but so do the other two.

The 450D is the lowest of the specs, but feels nicest in the hand, and is a bit smaller and lighter than the other two. They all feel nice, but the canon's buttons feel like they are positioned better for my fingers.

My main problem is that they all review well, but I can't find good comparison reviews between them as they are from different "categories" or are too new on the market compared to the others.

I'm leaning towards the K20D as it offers the better range lens, weatherproofing and seems to be more on par with the 40D category (plus it offers in-body stabilisation where the Canon doesn't). Does anyone own the K20D? If so, would you recommend it as a huge step above the K200D and worth the extra money? I'll probably try and shoot a majority of shots in RAW (with memory cards being so cheap these days), so the sub-par performance of the K200D in JPEG shouldn't matter too much, which is that models downfall according to most sites.

Basically what I guess I'm asking, is if you all had $1700 (or less) to spend, which model would you go for? If there is a better, cheaper option than what I listed above, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for any advice.

*edit*. As always happens, the Fuji S5 Pro DSLR is now in the picture, which is raved about by wedding and portrait photographers because of the excellent colour and tone it produces......

[Skippy]

I'm leaning towards the K20D as it offers the better range lens, weatherproofing and seems to be more on par with the 40D category (plus it offers in-body stabilisation where the Canon doesn't). Does anyone own the K20D? If so, would you recommend it as a huge step above the K200D and worth the extra money? I'll probably try and shoot a majority of shots in RAW (with memory cards being so cheap these days), so the sub-par performance of the K200D in JPEG shouldn't matter too much, which is that models downfall according to most sites.

I'm sure you'll get plenty of replies from Canon and Nikon owners telling you to buy their models if only to reassure themselves about their own purchase so as a K10d owner (my father in law has a K20d) I feel compelled to commend you on considering a Pentax . To use a Pentaxian analogy, they're a lot like Subaru - good reliable products offering plenty of bang for the buck but sales volume is lower because they don't put the same dollars into marketing as "the big two".

You've nailed the Pentax's selling points. The in body stabilisation effectively means every lens that you put on the front of the camera has image stablisation; the compatability of every k-mount lens ever produced and M42 glass with adapter (around 23 million) gives you almost an almost unbeatable range of lens at great prices; proper weather sealing; and price.

As you've seen in the spec sheets the K20d is relatively high end, it's Pentax's answer to the 40D and D300 but it's price leads people to think of it more as a competitor for the 450D and D90 which is where the K200d is aimed. The K200d is basically an updated K10d, do you need the extra features of the K20d and are they worth $600 to you? If I didn't already have a K10d, I'd probably lean towards the K200d and put the extra money into lens. The 18-250mm has a reputation as a very respectable performer overall and quite good as an all rounder. If you think it will get you by it might be worth putting the extra money into a body that will have a longer shelf life and not have you wanting to upgrade in 12 months.

Have a look at Pentax Forums, where should I buy a K20d or K200d threads are as common as How do I access the classified threads here

IMO, the in camera video is a bit of a novelty to one up the competition and help sell cameras. If you want to take HD videos buy a HD video camera.

The excellent colour and tone that the Fuji produces is that from in camera jpegs or shooting raw? I'd also consider if Fuji is going to be in the DSLR game for years to come. At least with Pentax, Nikon and Canon even though the bodies will come and go the lens will have a purpose for years to come.

Really, I think the most important part is how the camera feels to you and the layout of the controls. You'll miss shots fiddling with the controls and making adjustments if the camera doesn't work for you.

[Lepperfish]

Get a 40D and get the best lens you can afford... 40D's are around $1000 at the moment, thats a bargain..

[dogboy]

do you guys have harvey norman stores in newcastle/sydney? the D90 is on sale there for $1400-ish with a lens 35to55mm i think, there are also cannons on sale as well.

[Camo]

Get a 40D and get the best lens you can afford... 40D's are around $1000 at the moment, thats a bargain..

Thats what i would be doing as well. The 40d is a well priced camera for what it offers.

Cameron

[Dark Morelia]

I guess the first question is: what are you going to use it for?

I recently got a 40D, EF 50mm f1.8, and EF 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM, all for $2300 so I reckon a bit of shopping around will get you a 40D and lens within your price range.

Then again, if its just a general walkabout camera, you might prefer the 450D's lighter weight.

I preferred the 40D's metal body, as I knew I'd be doing a fair bit of bush-bashing while birding/herping with it.

[Lepperfish]

I guess the first question is: what are you going to use it for?

I recently got a 40D, EF 50mm f1.8, and EF 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM, all for $2300 so I reckon a bit of shopping around will get you a 40D and lens within your price range.

Then again, if its just a general walkabout camera, you might prefer the 450D's lighter weight.

I preferred the 40D's metal body, as I knew I'd be doing a fair bit of bush-bashing while birding/herping with it.

The 40D is an excellent camera for the price.. The reason it has dropped like it has is because of the 50D's release.. I currently use a 40D, have been for about 18 months or so, I got it when it first came out. I would not upgrade from the 40D to a 50D.. While the 450D may be lighter, it doesnt feel as nice to handle as the 40D.. I think, from what ive read here i stick to my original post.. You can get a 40D body only for $1000, that leaves $700 for a lens that you want, If it was my money and i was on a budget, Id get the 40D body and if I could stretch the budget a bit, either the 17-40 F/4L or the 24-105 F/4L lens..

Whoops, just realised you got the IS model of the 70-300..... My bad........... Still over paid a bit i think. But no biggy... Just wondering why you would choose thre 70-300 and not say the 70-200 f/4L and a 1.4tc.. Or if your really serious about birding you need 400mm + Luckily for me I just picked up the 400 f/5.6L !!

[Lepperfish]

Oh yeah, and if you need a suggestion on where to purchase from, don't hesitate to pm me Andy..

[matt]

Hey

I found that this guy has some really good reviews of photographc stuff on his website

http://www.kenrockwell.com/

You may have already seen it but its worth a look

Thanks

Matt

[QueenslandeR]

mate i picked up a canon 450D a month or so ago, twin canon IS lens kid 18-50 and 55-250, very happy with results, only paid 1400 for it too which is a decent price, got my camera bag from http://www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au good store very fast delivery and great priced cameras.

[cisco]

Personally I own a Nikon D300 - for what you want the Canon 40D would be excellent value

for your money because of the recent introduction of the of the 50D.

It is more advanced than the 3 you suggested and ergonomically feels better in the hand.

If you stick with Nikon or Canon in the future you have a much larger choice of lenses.

Be careful of the sales push on IS or VR it is only critical if your focal length is extended.

Good luck - Ross.

[ViS]

I'm now at the second stage of camera buying. The first stage was "This is what I can afford". The current stage I'm in now is the "Do I need the best I can afford, or the best value for money? Am I really going to notice double the difference for double the money?"

The prices listed below are pretty standard online prices from an aussie shop. I'm sure I can get them down a little when I decide on the camera.

Anyway, seeing as I'm in that second stage, here is a list of options, ranging from the limit of what I'm prepared to pay, down to entry level cameras which review very well, have all the options I need and have upgraded lenses from the kit lenses in most cases:

Pentax K20D

Body Only AU$1,225.00

Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4.5 AU$1,559.00

Pentax (rebadged tamron) 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 AU$1,670.00

Canon EOS 40D

Body Only AU$1,099.00

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f3.5-5.6 IS USM AU$1,699.00

Canon EF-S 18-200mm F3.5-5.6 IS AU$1,948.00

Tamron AF 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) Macro AU$1,728.00

Nikon D90

Body only AU$1,399.00

AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR AU$1,679.00

Olympus E-520

14-42mm (28-84 eq) + 40-150mm F3.5-5.6 Telephoto Zoom Lens AU$999.00

14-42mm + 70-300mm F4-5.6 Telephoto Zoom Lens AU$1,279.00

Canon EOS 450D

Body Only AU$889.00

Tamron AF 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 LD Aspherical (IF) Macro AU$1,499.00

Canon EOS 1000D

Body Only AU$699.00

Tamron AF 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 LD Aspherical (IF) Macro AU$1,289.00

Nikon D60

Body Only AU$729.00

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED $1,228.00

Tamron AF 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) Macro $1,358.00

Pentax K200D

Body Only AU$599.00

Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4.5 AU$939.00

Pentax 18-250mm F3.5-5.6 ED AU$1,179.00

Samsung GX-20 (A Pentax K20D re-badged)

18-55mm kit lens AU$1,199.00 ($999.00 on ebay).

Tamron AF 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 LD Aspherical (IF) Macro AU$1,499.00

From reading user reviews on all cameras and lenses, I think I'd be happy with any of the above choices. It's going to come down to value for money vs end product quality. I'm still leaning towards the top two options (K20D or 40D), but the entry level cameras are very user friendly, smaller and with the upgraded lenses would produce excellent results.

From reading the price list above, does any one option stand out from the rest?

[katatoniq]

mate you just can't go past the canon 40D in my opinion. they're just unbeatable in any department.

[J_SiN]

the canon 40D does shot really nice and its well worth the extra little bit over the 450D which i dont think its as good as the canon 400D

[Lee Miller]

Hi Andy,

Reviews I've read say that the smaller size of the 450D, particularly in the grip, has caused the reviewers to get cramp in their hand if using the camera for any length of time.

While Tamron and Sigma make good lenses (I had a Tamron on my Canon film camera) I feel a lot happier with same brand lens and camera. They just seem to fit and work better.

This isn't a voting situation where you have to go with the majority of opinions, but I believe that the Canon 40D with the EF-S 18-200mm @ AU$1,948.00 is the best package. But be quick whatever you decide, the drop in the Aussie $$ means that new stocks are going to cost a lot more

Cheers,

Lee.

[ViS]

Good call Lee.

Definitely worth thinking about. I might have to decide sooner than later

The 40D is definitely the crowd favourite

[Skippy]

I'd be interested to hear from one of the Canon owners why they think the 40d is unbeatable and in which areas it has the advantage over the other cameras that Andy is considering. Popularily is a good indicator of marketing dollars a company spends not necessarily what is best.

Andy, if you're considering the Sigma 17-70 which seems to be quite well regarded by those that own it as your walkabout lens than having the 18-250 is doubling up across a lot of the range unnecessarily. I'd go for the Pentax 55-300 instead, sure you lose the convienience of the all in one but you'll get more coverage at the long end with arguably better resolution. Pentax also has a relatively new 17-70 f4 lens but the jury is still out on it, it costs more and doesn't have the same close focusing distance as the Sigma's "macro".

I'd don't know if you're considering using the camera diving. Pentax housings are rare as and seriously expensive whereas Canon and Nikon housings are readily available.

If you stick with Nikon or Canon in the future you have a much larger choice of lenses.

Be careful of the sales push on IS or VR it is only critical if your focal length is extended.

Good luck - Ross.

Seriously It always amuses me when Canon and Nikon owners try to play the better range of lenses card.

Just because Canon and Nikon had to come up with new mounts to fit their lenses onto digital bodies doesn't mean that is the case for every other manufacturer . Pentax stuck with it's 40 year old K mount so there are literally millions of lens in existence that will work with any Pentax dslr, some of which are regarded in photography circles as the best lens ever made. Any Pentax lens from the F, FA, FAJ, DFA and DA series lens has full automatic functionality on Pentax dslrs. The A, M and K series all work too but you lose auto focus and automatic metering.

SR, IS or VR, is useful for more than just shooting at long focal lens. IMO, it's most valuable in low light conditions when you can't use flash. Without it you'll be lucky to hand hold a camera with a shutter speed slower than 1/30th, with you can probably get away with 1/15th or maybe 1/10th. Imagine all those great kids blowing out birthday candles, wedding/christenings in dark church shots you won't miss if you have SR, IS or VR - even better if it's in the body.

While Tamron and Sigma make good lenses (I had a Tamron on my Canon film camera) I feel a lot happier with same brand lens and camera. They just seem to fit and work better.

The camera world seems to be pretty incestuous, who owns who and who makes lens for who is pretty messy. Don't take the badge on the lens as an indicator for who manufactured it .

[Lepperfish]

Because the canon system is so simple to use. And a 40D has much easier menu/button layouts and controls then a lower spec 450D.. Seriously, from those packages you listed, id get the 40D with the 17-85IS then save up for a nice telephoto lens..

[ViS]

Incestuous is right

The Fuji S5 uses the Nikon D200 as it's base, with a different sensor, but uses Nikon mount lenses. Fuji and Nikon have been in bed together for many years and most fuji models are based on Nikon bodies, although the S5 is the first Fuji DSLR to make use of one of their higher end models.

The Pentax K20D is the same camera as the Samsung GX-20 with a few minor differences. The same was the K10D / GX-10 etc.

Nikon have provided bodies to Kodak and other companies in the past.

Fuji, Nikon and others all use Sony Sensors, then tweak them themselves to offer different sharpness etc.

Canon, apart from their 3rd party sensors, do most things in-house.

[chorrylan]

Just because Canon and Nikon had to come up with new mounts to fit their lenses onto digital bodies doesn't mean that is the case for every other manufacturer .

hey Skippy. All the rest sounds good but that little weeny bit is misleading. My trusty old 10D and all the newer canon DSLRs happily take the same EF lenses that Canon have used since the mid 80's.

They introduced the EF-S lenses purely for marketing reasons as they allow them to trim some cost and size out of their entry packages to support their marketing program (which you have to concede has been darned successful).

Despite all this: I love the one IS lens I own and in fact recommended a friend check out the K20D very carefully for this explicit reason.

Just an aside that EF vs EF-s lens bit Vis:

if you do go with something in the CANON lineup and your long term view is to build a collection of lenses and stuff then whenever you buy lenses you should consider carefully the distinction between the EF and EF-s mounts.

EF-s lenses are cheaper but they will not fit on cameras built around full sized sensors and it's unlikely that canon will change this so.... if/when the full size sensors reach down into our end of the market and you switch to a new camera body then you will be throwing EF-s lenses away and taking EF lenses with you.

That's probably irrelevant for cheaper lenses but could make you cringe for something you spend a lot of money on.

[Lepperfish]

Crop sensored bodies are going to be around for a while yet, I wouldn't be worried buying EF-S lenses. I actually own one..

[Skippy]

hey Skippy. All the rest sounds good but that little weeny bit is misleading. My trusty old 10D and all the newer canon DSLRs happily take the same EF lenses that Canon have used since the mid 80's.

They introduced the EF-S lenses purely for marketing reasons as they allow them to trim some cost and size out of their entry packages to support their marketing program (which you have to concede has been darned successful).

Despite all this: I love the one IS lens I own and in fact recommended a friend check out the K20D very carefully for this explicit reason.

I stand corrected never believe anything you read on the internet or your Canon-owning brother in law tells you.

Crop sensored bodies are going to be around for a while yet, I wouldn't be worried buying EF-S lenses. I actually own one..

Full frames seems to be the direction Canon and Nikon are moving or at least what all the "measurbators" are crowing about, do you think Canon and Nikon will stick with APS sized sensors on their mid-range and entry levels cameras as full frame sensors become cheaper?

[ViS]

I knew I shouldn't have gone to JB-HIFI while they were having a sale

They have a pretty great deal going on the Olympus E-520. After the sale discount and cashback from Olympus, you get the 14-42mm and 40-150mm kit (both excellent lenses apparently) for $800.

For that price, I could look around later for a high quality 4/3 lens (all 4/3 lenses are Olympus compatible).

Even with the sale discount, the 40D was $1800 with the 17-85mm lens.

Here is a good hands-on review with lots of pictures from a happy E-520 buyer:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...mp;changemode=1

And a review on the 14-42mm lens:

http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/olympu...42_3p5-5p6_o20/

The Olympus Zuiko Digital 12-60mm 1:2.8-4.0 looks like a good alternative too.

I'm still not convinced, but for the price, it's certainly got me interested. I have until tomorrow to decide

[Lepperfish]

Crop sensored bodies are going to be around for a while yet, I wouldn't be worried buying EF-S lenses. I actually own one..

Full frames seems to be the direction Canon and Nikon are moving or at least what all the "measurbators" are crowing about, do you think Canon and Nikon will stick with APS sized sensors on their mid-range and entry levels cameras as full frame sensors become cheaper?

Yes....

[ViS]

Decided against the E-520. Great value for money, but I want a good low-light camera, which is where the olympus falls behind.

I'd rather spend a bit more for a better result.

Still got the K20D, 40D and D60 / D90 in my sights. I'm trying to find a shop that has all cameras in stock so I can compare them side by side.