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G.Altifrons "AripuanaII"


chevguy

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Geophagus cf Altifrons "Aripuana II" is what we in Australia call this varient,but is it? :dntknw:

Ask yourselfs,what makes an Altifrons an Altifrons? A few distinguishing characteristics of any Altifrons are,little to no lateral spot,size(as compared to other geo species),the green sheen that all Altifrons varients have, and they are INSTANT MOUTHBROODERS. :yes: This last point is where the problem lies,all so called "Aripuana II" in this country are delayed mouthbrooders. :shock:

So what are they really? :dntknw:

We could also throw the possibilty out there that the "Aripuana I" is actually not that as well. Another Altifrons trait is heavily spotted caudal(tail) markings not stripes. Hmmmm...........

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kieth,

the word "altifrons" means high-alti, frons-front, so "high front".....aripuana is the location and the II bit im not sure of exactly, but id say that they were the second to be described...but im sure you knew that :yes:

when you say they are not instant mouth breeders....what do you mean?.......do yours sit on thier eggs for up to 24 hours, then take them up? ....or would you expect them to fertilise them in the mouth like africans do....ie. instant?...

given that the only real documentation that we have to go by, is the book,...perhaps you are guilty of what i use to be guilty of.......trying too hard. :yes: ....you may be right. I'm currently trying to distinguish between two differant types of "brachybrancus".......the ones that i thought were brachys...and the ones that ive just been given as brachys...are quite differant....yet similar :dntknw:

Maybe your fish are far enough removed from the wild, that they have become delayed mouthbreeders :dntknw:

I know exactly what you are going through......questioning the species....is it what I bought it as?

when i contacted Thomas Weidner, even he wasn't sure without the location......until we get some kind of proper id system, we'll always have this problem...

..look at what happened to me with the argys......they were origanally sold to the guy i bought them from, by your Sydney contact, as Rio Areos.....when clearly, they were not....Weidner ID them for me, from those photos...

Its frustrating,and i know i havent answered any of your questions, but really we are at the mercy of what the book describes....maybe the book is inacurate :shock: or maybe you and I are guilty of looking TOO hard ....i dont know

just a thought

Jeff

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Ok,the book, as does all other literature state that all Altifrons are instant mouthbrooders,ie- lay about 8 eggs and then pick up and so on until all eggs are laid,they may be fertilised after each row is laid or if the male is guarding territoty,they will be fertilised later whilst in the mouth. Now what i am trying to determine is why do what we class as Aripuana II in this country not do this?,but are delayed mouthbrooders,ie- lay all their eggs,fertilise and pick-up around 24 hours later. The Aripuana I's (as we call them) ARE instant mouthbrooders,why is there a difference between I's and II's? Either the II's are not an Altifrons species as such or we do not actually have them here. I do not understand how only one variant can be a delayed mouthbrooder and all others are instant. Surely this has to raise some questions about what they really are.

Yes Jeff,i agree that it is very hard to know what is what,especially at a young age as they all look similar but now that there are a lot of adult Geo's around,maybe it is time that we started questioning what is what,if for no other reason it may stop a lot of confusion amongst people and shops to actually not just say this is what i have,when clearly it is something different. It would eventually make iding geo's in this country a lot easier for all. Yes,i do realise that it is much easier said than done. :roll

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a lot depends on the people sending them out here in the first place.....

i understand your concern......as the II's you have, may not be II's.......

that is a concern, as i just bought 10 II's.....

if, as you say 1 does and 1 doesn't, that is a worry......and raises the further question, if they are not, then what are they??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

its a shame its so hard to track them back to thier original import sources...even then, as i say, they have to know exactly what they are to start with.....that is the price of relying on money driven importers, rather than real enthusiasts...like you and i

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a lot depends on the people sending them out here in the first place.....

i understand your concern......as the II's you have, may not be II's.......

that is a concern, as i just bought 10 II's.....

if, as you say 1 does and 1 doesn't, that is a worry......and raises the further question, if they are not, then what are they??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

its a shame its so hard to track them back to thier original import sources...even then, as i say, they have to know exactly what they are to start with.....that is the price of relying on money driven importers, rather than real enthusiasts...like you and i

This whole thing raised it's head about 6 months ago and i dismissed it at the time but after doing a bit of research and getting some feedback from Germany and the U.S,it makes me wonder. :confused:

It is not just my II's but II's in general in Australia.

Agreed,without knowing the collection point,we may never know exactly what is what. :cryblow:

What are they?, that is the hard part.If the above facts are correct,is anyones guess and a road that i'll let you persue if you like. :p

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dont get me started on f@#$%ing brasilliensis :angry:

i paid $68 each for 6........female...........iporongensis, labelled as bahia reds........i git em shipped from perth.....i watched em lay eggs and three of em protect the rapidly fungusing brood.......it was a lesbian love in :no: when i contacted the seller and told him i was un happy.....he disappeared into the ether

moral of the story......never buy from the internet....sight un seen :no: even when he assures you, he knows what hes talking about and hes never done a bad deal...... well he has now

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Geophagus cf Altifrons "Aripuana II"

This fish should be described as Geophagus cf. "altifrons aripuana II"

This is because Geophagus altifrons is not a scientifically described fish, as I did not see it in the ITIS taxonomic index. I could be wrong, if so, can someone correct me.

Putting the above fact aside, we can describe the fish as

Geophagus [genus]

cf Altifrons [unknown species which is similar to G. altifrons]

"Aripuana II" [location and II I do not want to guess but agree with them being a second form]

So Geophagus cf. altifrons "Aripuana II" is similar to Geophagus sp. "altifrons", but whether this similarity is behavioural or colour patterning and shape, I have no idea, although I would lean towards the latter.

It seems though, that many eartheaters are hard to distinguish. Just look at the G. jurupari mess. lol.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Vien.

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Even the magic green book shows some examples of fish which exhibit characteristics of one or more of the known variants. This may sound synical but I would imagine that some variants are just named based on the fact that at the point of import the fish show characteristics close to the one type of fish or another.

As long as people don't allow fish to interbreed then we are ok to call them what ever we like, as far as the Aripuana II go they are definately magnificant looking fish no matter what they are, and if the going name is Aripuana II then so be it. These different Altifrons are very tough to identify with any confidence.Just to throw a curly one out there ,who's Aripuans II have black marks on the cheeks dependant on mood, if so doesn't this mean they are Brachys of some kind ?............

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Vien

check out http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/speciesSum...sname=altifrons

so the description becomes:

Geophagus cf. altifrons "Aripuana II"

ie

-- remove quotes from altifrons because it IS described

-- capitalize location since it is a proper noun

I have them too, and mine sit around guarding the eggs for a while.

I'm not convinced they're not actually a variant of brachybranchus.

Cheers,

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The good news is that they had a similar problem in the U.S. :shock: The bad news atm is that there is/was a Geophagus species caught and exported from Columbia that was mistaken for an Altifrons Variant as it shared similar characteristics like high sloping head profile,spotted tail and size. This fish was exported heavily into the aquarium trade world wide. It is now known to be part of the Surinamensis family.The question is,Is this the same fish that we are talking about atm? :confused:

From all reports thus far even cf Altifrons are instant Mouthbrooders,hence one reason for the Altifrons name,be it Affirmed(aff) or Conferred(cf).

All of you guys that have the "Ari II's" can you please post or pm me good quality pics from all angles/sides etc.

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Thanks for the call this morning chevguy. My Aripuana IIs arrived safe'n'sound this afternoon. Will be watching this post with interest to see how things progress. Always problematic these geos - that's why we love 'em. Otherwise we'd just buy one group and not worry about all these little variations. :p

Fishguts - PMed you.

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All of you guys that have the "Ari II's" can you please post or pm me good quality pics from all angles/sides etc.

Got loads of photos, but they're all pretty large, if youwant them, please PM me an e-mail address we can send them too.

Cheers,

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i recently put 11 juvie aripuana II's in with 8 juvie brachys......well, bugger me, if i cant tell the bloody differance :wallbash: .....thats an exageration.....but i really have to look hard to pick em....and yes they do have the brachy's black cheek mark.......the only real differance is the brachys have broken rows of scales on thier bellies and the alto's have regular lines of scales......but if you had to pick em in a hurry, you'd have trouble.....just to throw another quandry into the mix, i got some differant stock brachys recently and they are quite differant to the ones i already had....similar but differant....maybe they are just better quality than the ones i had.....or are they a differant species :dntknw: ....the futher you delve into this genus, the mirkier the whole thing becomes.....i have a sneaking suspision, that we are just starting to uncover the dealings of some unscrupulous importers who have rushed to fill the demand for new geos, with what ever they could get thier hands on....and as a result, we now find ouselves questioning every species.....look at the juru thing....whats what there.......

this whole altifrons thing, is in my opinion, just the tip of the iceburg.....and as for brasills and even things like miridionalus(sorry about the spelling). iv'e seen them, and im buggered if i can tell the differance between them and young brasills....(i actually think they were young brasills)

at least a red hump is a red hump.......or is it??????? i remember when they were called "hondeas"

i hope im just being cinical.....and it all pans out, but as ive said before, we are at the mercy of what sells......and if it sells who cares, if its not quite what its said to be.......well clearly some of us do...

thats just my thoughts ;)

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Ok people,there are a few guys involved that now know exactly where this is heading and what species we think the "Aripuana II" in this country actually is. Atm from all feedback recieved from overseas and local,the species has almost been positively identified,just waiting on 100% confirmation.(Sometime midweek hopefully).

Now if colfish,ozarowana,moremoneythansense or geoboy want to let on anymore atm so be it,as they have all been great helps from the start,especially ozarowana as he bought the topic back to life and did a lot research himself.(no i don't have a problem naming names.) :p

Ozarowana, Kudos to you. :clap

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[been positively identified,just waiting on 100% confirmation.(Sometime midweek hopefully).

so you'll let us know midweek?...well done....pm me the details if you like......i can give you an address for thomas wiedner too

if you want to ask him

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Maybe your fish are far enough removed from the wild, that they have become delayed mouthbreeders
Highly unlikely, I don't know any aquarium species that have changed their breeding behaviours. Can anyone think of any? I don't think they are that far removed from WC to change too much actually. How long have they been in the country?

its a shame its so hard to track them back to thier original import sources...even then, as i say, they have to know exactly what they are to start with.....that is the price of relying on money driven importers, rather than real enthusiasts...like you and i
I don't think it's the importers that are to blame, we should be grateful that they have brought them in. I think the real problem lies at the point of collection and export. I'm sure a large percentage of geo's are exported small (we all know how difficult they are to distinguish at this age) and it would still be hard for the exporter to get a correct ID even if they knew the river they came from. They sell them as what they believe them to be and the next facility they go too just keeps that name. The major rivers over there are around 3000km in length and have numerous tributaries, which probably doesn't help either. I'm sure they are sometimes accidentally mixed up at the exporters facilities too. I think if you are into eartheaters... large numbers of quite similar species is just something you have to live with.

Before being added to the import list frontosa keepers just called them 6 or 7 bar fronnies, without too much questioning the locality from which they came. Why do geo keepers question what they are and/or give incorrect names? :lol3:

It seems though, that many eartheaters are hard to distinguish. Just look at the G. jurupari mess. lol.
I think the surinamensis/altifrons complex/types are a bigger mess. We pretty much know what is what with the small number of Satanoperca species here. In regards to G. jurupari I think there is more info shared these days so correct names slowly seem to be used more.

Got loads of photos, but they're all pretty large, if youwant them, please PM me an e-mail address we can send them too.
Keith loves large attachments in his emails :lol3: I sent him around 50+mb worth :lol4:

i recently put 11 juvie aripuana II's in with 8 juvie brachys......well, bugger me, if i cant tell the bloody differance .....thats an exageration.....but i really have to look hard to pick em....and yes they do have the brachy's black cheek mark.......the only real differance is the brachys have broken rows of scales on thier bellies and the alto's have regular lines of scales......but if you had to pick em in a hurry, you'd have trouble.....
I believe we as hobbyists need to bide our time and only try and ID mature adults for this very reason.

Now if colfish,ozarowana,moremoneythansense or geoboy want to let on anymore atm so be it
Well we now know the characteristics of the fish in question:

A distinctively spotted tail, preopercular mark, high head and body shape, large lateral spot and are larvophilous.

G. cf altifrons "Aripuana II" should now be called G. sp. "Willitbehardtogetpeopletofollow III"

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Is it midweek yet? I'm still holding my breath. :lol1:

What we can say for sure atm is that the fish labelled as G.cf. Altifrons "AripuanaII" in this country is not an Altifrons variant at all,we now know this to be 100% correct.

What is it? :confused: Still waiting on a definate response from overseas but it is almost certainly......... :p

Ooh,the anticipation. :lol4:

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This is a very interseting thread.... :thumb

I was confused before and now am confused even more, two questions if I may, or more accuratley one question and one request. :confused:

The question....what is the "book"?

The request..... following the much anticipated answer could someone please post a photo to add some clarity for us not fortunate enough to keep them :dntknw:

Cheers

Ross

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Wow, just came accross this thread.....

Some very interesting reading and i am looking forward to hearing the results of everyone queries.....

Ozarowana....WHAT HAVE YOU STARTED!!!!! HAHAHAHA

I would like to know the correct name as i am selling the little buggers and want to make sure that i'm selling them with the right name!!!!!

Cheers

Matt

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