Ash Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 OK, so I looked in the Photo comp thread & everyone who posted a pic with feeding of live vertebrates in it had their entry removed as per the rules. Animal cruelty guidelines prohibit the feeding of live vertebrates to other animals. We discourage this practice and will remove posts, which indicate its implementation without notice. So riddle me this.... How do LFS sell feeder fish & get away with it? If it's not illegal & is purely an animal rights tree hugger political correctness thing... Isn't it cruel to force a piscivore to not eat it's natural food? To take that one step further, isn't it cruel to keep any fish in a tank in the first place? I think it reeks of hypocrisy that we as a hobby can all be cruel on one level, but not on an insignificantly different other level. Buy a feeder, euthanise it then feed it off? Careless fishkeepers slowly killing their goldies by ammonia poisoning is way crueler than someone dropping one in a tank for a cichla to swallow in an instant, I know people here aren't doing that but the general public sure as hell are. I don't expect a rule change or anything, but I would like honest discussion about this without it being censored as a taboo topic. Look forward to any replies. Cheers Ash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Bids are opening on how long it takes this to turn into a flame fest.....come on ive got $5 same day, $5 same day....any takers? Ash, i think this is something only the mods can answer, but i can see both sides of the story. I feed only NLS, and it never screams when i sprinkle it into the tank, however your right in the fact that its part of nature for one fish to eat another, and infact it definatley more cruel to place 5 E. Yellows in a 3 footer with a Red Devil. However, in the aims of keeping peace on the forums and respecting both views on the matter i guess its just easier to taboo the topic. [EDIT] these are my views only, leave it up to ace mods to have the final say. [/EDIT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchWA Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I think i agree with you. I had always thought feeding them what they would normally eat in the wild would be doing them a favour; trying to keep the tank as close to their natural habitat as possible. I dont buy feeder fish due to having disease paranoia problems, but if you want to take that gamble, that's your choice. I can see this is going to turn ino a fairly heated discussion! :D Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Ash Some shops sell Dyed/juiced/injected fish, hormone-based foods, and teeny tiny little aquariums the size of a matchbox. They are allowed to sell all of these, but we don't tolerate them here at ACE and won't take on a sponsor who sells any of these products. I think we're talking about 2 different things here... We here at ACE have standards, and we feel quite strongly about them. The law is not about standards as such, and as you've pointed out re feeder fish it is somewhat open to interpretation. I'm all for some discussion as long as people remember to behave like adults even if their opinion is different to someone else's For the record, we are currently clarifying our rules re feeders so there should be less confusion in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just to clarify, I don't actually feed live feeders anymore - I was more concerned for those on the forum who keep fish that are very hard ifnot impossible to get off life feeders & onto frozen food, let alone pellets. So BaZ is it actually a law that they get around through they "you have to euthanise it before you feed it" loophole? There's a huge difference in my mind between feeding a live fish to a RD or Oscar & feeding it to some obscure tankbuster that eats nothing else - that's why I started this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I wondered this too, the pic of mine which was removed from the photo comp thread was of a fish eating a dead goldfish, i PM'd Yew to ask for a bit of clarification but i didnt get a response? Maybe he didnt get the PM? Either way, i did think it was kind of strange that you couldnt post a pic of a dead feeder being eaten but posting a photo of a snake eating a dead baby chicken was allowed to stay on the other week? I agree totally with "Dyed/juiced/injected fish, hormone-based foods, and teeny tiny little aquariums the size of a matchbox" being discourage or banned but i dont understand try to remove instinctive predatory behaviour from some fish. Would you consider attempting to surpress natural behaviour cruel? Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E4G13M4N Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I cant speak for other states, in SA there are no laws on feeder fish only against feeding live rodents etc. The rodent side of things is based more on the injury they may inflict on reptiles (through bites getting infected) and not so much on the live food itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gav Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 a couple of pics removed from the photo comp were of dead feeders. mystified me also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Ok, be mystified no longer Here's the updated rules thread regarding feeders. Does that take away some of the confusion? Basically if you want to post a picture of a dead rat being eaten, that's fine. If you want to post a picture of your fish eating whitebait that you bought (already dead) for it, then that's fine. If you post a picture of your oscar eating a goldfish, that's not fine because they are not sold as dead food products. Remember, you need to include a notation somewhere in your post informing readers that the food item was already dead and bought for the purpose of feeding. Please let me know if there's a way I can make this more clear so we don't have a similar issue with any future members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatoscarlover Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Sounds pretty clear to me Thanks baz... Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSAKA Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Sorry i've got to agree with Ash. I have only joined this forum recently but i also notice the whole taboo thing about feeders here. Just out of curiousity who else apart from the mod patrol is against feeders other than for hygine reasons? I wonder why we try so hard to make our tanks like their natural environment and then feed them flake and pellets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Sorry i've got to agree with Ash. I have only joined this forum recently but i also notice the whole taboo thing about feeders here. Just out of curiousity who else apart from the mod patrol is against feeders other than for hygine reasons? I wonder why we try so hard to make our tanks like their natural environment and then feed them flake and pellets? Whats fairer, dropping a person in the middle of an African savana and watching them evade a lion. or Putting the lion in a cage and then throwing the human in. If your argument is natural selection then fine, however in a 4ft tank there is not much room for the feeder fish to escape as it would have in the wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakes Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I wonder why it appears that we consider the life of a vertebrate to be worth more than an invertebrate. If i was a prawn i'd be a bit miffed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzzy Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 No one likes prawn...their spineless (sorry, lame i know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 So what happens to Tunnel Rat's entry then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSAKA Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 lol it sounds like you guys are vegetarians or all you eat is meatballs and pancakes (get it? like pellets and flake?) Anyway each to their own....but i love tucking into a feed of ribs and rump, whole bird, spit roasts etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Anyway each to their own....but i love tucking into a feed of ribs and rump, whole bird, spit roasts etc.... Yes, but do you love tucking into a feed of live cow, live chicken etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeW Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Ladies/Gents: Firstly ACE is against the use of live feeders for virtually all cichlids (it's simply unnecessary). If you put aside the issues of animal cruelty - there's a real risk you can infect your fish with pathogens or parasites via feeders. Feeder fish are frequently poorly cared (another ethical reason not to support the practice) and for these reasons make a very poor choice of meal for most cichlids for this reason. Most cichlids will readily eat prepared foods (pellets etc). These are free of pathogens, parasites and a much better idea. Cichids live longer, breed more sucessfully and grow larger in captivity than they frequently do in the wild. Do the maths. Secondly, the RSPCA prohibits this kind of thing. If you've got an issue with it - take it up with the RSPCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 So what happens to Tunnel Rat's entry then? Sorry Matty I missed this question. Tunnel Rat was advised of the re-vamped ruling and it was suggested that he re-enter his photo according to these rules, but he declined. Perhaps he's done you all a favour because it was a great shot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakes Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I feed only NLS, and it never screams when i sprinkle it into the tank... I'd say the screaming stopped sometime between when it was pulled out of the ocean and when it was thrown in the mincer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 This thread makes me want to feed a colony of mbuna to my bichirs! More seriously, forums have way too many rules these days. Alot of which I personally don't agree with especially this one. My pic of my Spotted gar eating a Tangerine zebra was taken off the photo comp, BEFORE anyone asked me if it was dead when I gave it to the gar? At the end of the day deal with the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLL Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I feed only NLS, and it never screams when i sprinkle it into the tank... I'd say the screaming stopped sometime between when it was pulled out of the ocean and when it was thrown in the mincer Beat me to it, same thoughts exactly. I am happy to abide by the rules though but I have often wondered the same thing. Surely it is just a matter of time till one fish eats another, it is just a matter of how you get from a to b. I do however agree with minimising any cruelty and suffering and certainly see the hygiene side of things also. Many people think slaughtering your own meat is barbaric also but are happy to eat over processed meat products, out of sight, out of mind i guess. Dictating the thickness of my lamb chops cannot be overrated. It is all a matter of opinion but while the rules state one thing then, such as here, I am happy to abide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milky Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 fish eat other smaller fish its just the way it is. thats why live bait always works better when your fishing... and YES cichlids do eat other fish and im sure they do in the wild too.. my cichlids have eaten hundreds of fry. i have found that they will have a go at anything that will fit into their mouth... i even witnessed one of my tropheus hunt down their own fry a couple of months ago.. its just the way it goes. but it seems to upset people for some reason... i dont feed my cichlids live food or fry but sometimes a mouthful will be spat when im not at home and the bigger fish will get a snack its all part of the food chain i just started working in an aquarium and a lady come in and says her goldfish keep dying. i asked few questions and it turned out that she had lost about 20 in the last few months... she was keeping them in a big plastic pot with the hole in the bottom sealed up with a toxic non aquarium safe silicon that a tiler was using. she said the goldfish were only lasting about 2 weeks or so. it would not have been a nice way to go for the poor goldfish! which goldfish would you rather be? the one that only lasts a few seconds before hes gulped down by a jack. or the one that gets poisoned by ammonia or some other toxic chemicals getting into the water because the person who buys it doesnt have a clue..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaZ Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 To clarify this rule a bit more for you all... Sometimes there are rules in place for the good of the forum as a whole. We really don't want negative attention from the RSPCA or animal activist groups, or anyone else who could try to shut ACE down over a breach of the animal cruelty laws. I for one spend enough of my spare time keeping this forum running without having to front up to court as well Remember, just because there is a rule, and just because we are enforcing it, doesn't mean that we as individuals all agree with it. Try to see the big picture. If the rule seems overly cautious, good! It means this forum will probably still be here tomorrow for you Arguing the case here won't get the laws changed. Like YeW has already said, this needs to be taken up with the RSPCA if you want the laws to be changed or relaxed, however I think you'll need to find a better argument other than 'it happens in the wild'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well.. personally I agree with the sentiment as to feeding fish live feeders is OK, but what Baz said makes sense. The PC could cause bigger problems then just not mentioning it....... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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