Jump to content

Eheim Jagers leaking?


MoliroMan

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 87
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Bad news for Jager lovers...

reply from Jager

Mine has condensation after only 3 weeks.

Andrea smile.gif

How can they possibly have a 240V appliance on the market if they are claiming that it is only "water resistant"? I'd imagine that such an appliance wouldn't meet Australian Standards.

Mick (who thought about buying some new Jager heaters the other day, but opted for another brand wink2.gif)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aline....very interesting....maybe it is the distributers way of protecting themselves from huge warranty claims?

i bought 2 Eheim Jagers from one of our sponsors recently and was told he only had one return due to someone playing with the calibration dial. He thought the condensation was not a problem and probably due to some humidity going into the heater casing during manufacture.

It would be great if one of our sponsors could contact Eheim to clarify this issue with condensation. I fill my tanks to the brim and there is no way i can place the top end out of the water!!!

I don't want to lose $1000s of dollars worth of fish!!!

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had one Jager fail on me in the past. It just stopped working altogether.

I'd also be interested to know if anyone's had one fail to the point where electrocution was possible. I honestly can't see a product being on the Australian Market if there was a possibility of electrocution. Even though most houses now have Safety Switches, it'd still be an unsafe product.

Mick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So far I have found out this:

The category that they fall under is 3350-2-55 (for heaters).

They require a rating of IPX8. The sticker should appear on the box....it doesn't appear on the one I have here, whereas it does on another brand that I have here.

It "appears" that the heaters may not be compliant with Australian standards, but I am yet to have this confirmed or otherwise. So far the distributer of these heaters in Australia has failed to return my email. I shall keep you posted.

I have tried at least 4 different makes now and all have had at least one form condensation inside the heater. They have ranged from $12.00 to $80.00...price doesn't seem to guarantee quality.

Andrea smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

very interesting indeed Andrea...i think we have opened a can of worms here!!!

it would be in the best interest of Eheim/Jager and LFS distributors to clarify this once and for all. I was told the superseded Jagers used some cheap cord which allowed water to get into the heater casing which should have been rectified with Eheim taking over the manufacture and QA of the Jagers.

We should be fully informed as a consumer of the product we have paid our hard earned cash on!!!

Andrea..what brand of heater is it that has the IPX8 rating?

Keep us posted!

Dave

Ps...has anyone brought this issue up in the US forums?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave....

Mozoo

Heto

Via Aqua

Visitherm

Johnlen

...all have the appropriate standards approval. There will be more I'm sure, but these I know for certain.

Andrea smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

It is time to bring some clarification to this thread

The following is direct from the distributor and i believe it is similar to the letter merjo is refering to. I do think however that it has been missinterpreted and taken out of its original context.

Letter Follows:

ALL glass aquarium heaters are deemed to be water resistant not water proof as some would have you believe. This is due to the fact that it is impossible to create a hermetic (airtight) seal with this type of product.

When the air in a heater heats up during the heating cycle the air expands and sometimes escapes past the heaters water seals – when the heating cycle stops the air in the heater cools, the air contracts and if the head of the heater is below the water surface it is possible for a tiny amount of water to be drawn into the heater, this results in moisture or fogging to appear on the inside of the glass.

Heaters often cycle dozens of times a day and inadvertently some moisture or fogging may appear. It is perfectly normal for this to occur in a small percentage of all heaters that are produced however performance and longevity is not affected and therefore not a warranty issue, however if for any reason should the performance become affected you and your customer can rest assured that the heater is covered by a 3 year warranty.

Approval Number: Q041759  Ingress Protection Rating: IP68

Anthony here is some further complex facts:

IP Explanation and Ratings

EN 60529 outlines an international classification system for the sealing effectiveness of enclosures of electrical equipment against the intrusion into the equipment of foreign bodies (i.e. tools, dust, fingers) and moisture. This classification system utilizes the letters "IP" ("Ingress Protection") followed by two or three digits. (A third digit is sometimes used. An "x" is used for one of the digits if there is only one class of protection; i.e. IPX4 which addresses moisture resistance only.)

Degrees of Protection - First Digit

The first digit of the IP code indicates the degree that persons are protected against contact with moving parts (other than smooth rotating shafts, etc.) and the degree that equipment is protected against solid foreign bodies intruding into an enclosure.

0 No special protection

1 Protection from a large part of the body such as a hand (but no protection from deliberate access); from solid objects     greater than 50mm in diameter.

2 Protection against fingers or other object not greater than 80mm in length and 12mm in diameter.

3 Protection from entry by tools, wires, etc., with a diameter of thickness greater than 1.0mm.

4 Protection from entry by solid objects with a diameter or thickness greater than 1.0mm

5 Protection from the amount of dust that would interfere with the operation of the equipment.

6 Dust tight.

Degrees of Protection - Second Digit

The second digit indicates the degree of protection of the equipment inside the enclosure against the harmful entry of various forms of moisture (e.g. dripping, spraying, submersion, etc.)

0 No special protection

1 Protection from dripping water.

2 Protection from vertically dripping water.

3 Protection from sprayed water.

4 Protection from splashed water.

5 Protection from water projected from a nozzle

6 Protection against heavy seas, or powerful jets of water.

7 Protection against immersion.

8 Protection against complete, continuous submersion in water.

Submersion depth and time must be specified by the end-user. The requirement must be more onerous than IP67

The IP Code Symbols

The chart at the right illustrates the use of special symbols in the IP classification system. In the "1st digit" column, not the grid-like symbols net to numbers 5 and 6. In the "2nd digit" column numbers 3-8 are symbolised by teardrop shaped symbols, sometimes enclosed in a box or a triangle, sometimes unenclosed (#7-8). These symbols can be placed on equipment to illustrate the IP protection provided.

IP68 – Dust proof & protected from continuous immersion in water under more severe conditions than IP67 (1 metre for 30 mins). This test for IP68 is generally for longer than 7 days or 168 hours but not more than 21 days and does not mean that it is waterproof – it is water resistant as it does not specify sealing effectiveness against – mechanical damage of the equipment, the risk of explosion, certain types of moisture conditions, e.g. those that are produced by condensation; corrosive vapours; fungus; vermin.

Much of the problem arises from peoples understanding or interpretation of a particular IP rating as well as our understanding and use of certain words like:

Waterproof - treated or constructed so as to be impenetrable or unaffected by water. 

Water- resistant - treated or constructed so as to prevent water being absorbed into it or passing through it.

Moisture - wetness, especially droplets of condensed or absorbed liquid, or in a vapour

Condensation - the process by which a vapour loses heat and changes into a liquid

- tiny drops of water that form on a cold surface such as a window when warmer air           comes into contact with it

So in fact if we apply the IP68 rating to an Aquarium Water heater it would be considered Water what?

As you can see all this info would overload most brains out there. What more my attempt to dispel the assumptions that were being made, was perhaps taken out of context (whether intentional or through lack of knowledge) some what, like the print and visual media manages to do on a daily basis – conveniently rearranged to make it more spectacular or defend their own bias.

Regards,

Aquatopia Australia

(There is also a diagram that helps to explain the IP numbering system that i have not yet uploaded)

Hope that helps to clarify the situation. I welcome your questions on the issue. I take out from the reply that;

The fogging is normal in a small percentage of cases and will not effect performance.

The Jagers are fully submersable and will be coverered by a FULL 3 year warranty should any problems arise.

They do comply with Australian standards and are registered as such.

I also need to ask how many people have had a Jager purchased in the last 2 years (Since the EHEIM takeover) fail? I have sold over 400 in this time and have only had 1 genuine return.

This thread has turned into a bit of a storm in a tea cup and seems to be based on a hypothetical problem rather than an actual one. I do however understand everyones concenrs and hope the above thread clarifies the situation and reassures everyone out there who allready has a Jager or is thinking about buying one.

Regards

Anthony

Auburn Aquarium

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That has done nothing but make my fears worse zipit.gif

You have a product being sold as fully submersible, with distributers making claims that they are the only such product. And then you have a distributer saying that an airtight seal is impossible and having condensation inside, is normal. dntknw.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That has done nothing but make my fears worse zipit.gif

You have a product being sold as fully submersible, with distributers making claims that they are the only such product.  And then you have a distributer saying that an airtight seal is impossible and having condensation inside, is normal. dntknw.gif

Well Duck, you better stop using aquarium heaters all togethter then!!!

The IP68 rating apply's to ALL aquarium heaters. If you re read the details regarding this IP68 rating it makes them dust and water resistant as is required by Australian standards for a fully submersable electrical product.

Where is the issue here??? They are not failing out there and the same applies to ALL submersable heaters on the market. NO heater can claim to be water proof.

I am failing to understand where you are coming from now confused.gif

Do you want to re design the heater, remembering that a Jager is sealed like ALL aquarium heaters? Or are you saying that the Australian standards are wrong now that it can't be claimed that Jagers don't comply and are not approved??

This is starting to sound a little like a witch hunt

Anthony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the heater has passed the relevant standard, then the submitted product at the time would have been approved for sale. Of course since gaining approval, the product quality may have changed, which would mean it would need retesting. I'm not sure whether this has been the case.

This may not be relevant here but the large electrical equipment are know to be specified to be IP68 rated. But they aren't built in vacume.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mozoo

Heto

Via Aqua

Visitherm

Johnlen

All have an IPX8 rating....but Jager has IP68 (and where is the sticker on the box saying that it is approved...the others have it). How does this equate to the others listed? Not trying to cause problems, just want clarification. Why pay 4 X the price of a cheaper heater if both get water in them?

Andrea smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're not paying 4x the amount of a cheaper heater to avoid water condensation, you're paying it for the reliability of the system. @nthony stated it before, out of a few hundred only a single Jager came back that was actually broken. Sure all heaters do the same job, but some just do it more efficiently and reliably for a longer time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know what you are saying Scmuck but I have about 40 heaters here in tanks...pretty much all have water in them....all different brands....ranging from $12 to $80 each. All are still working so why buy Jager? Most of these heaters have been running for 5-8 years.

Andrea smile.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since you didn't seem to catch the drift of my last post:

No other heater claims to be the ONLY fully submersible heater on the market, at least none I have seen have made that claim - (This claim may not have been made by Eheim/Jager directly I am not sure, but I have heard it numerous times from their official distributers and retailers in this country.)

The product at the focus of these claims is now said to be no different to all the other heaters in that a totally water-tight seal is impossible, and that it complies to the same standard as the rest of them.

You don't see any discrepancy there? rolleyes.gif

Oh, and by the way, I am way ahead of you - I stopped using all aquarium heaters months ago thumb.gif

That has done nothing but make my fears worse zipit.gif

You have a product being sold as fully submersible, with distributers making claims that they are the only such product.  And then you have a distributer saying that an airtight seal is impossible and having condensation inside, is normal. dntknw.gif

Well Duck, you better stop using aquarium heaters all togethter then!!!

The IP68 rating apply's to ALL aquarium heaters. If you re read the details regarding this IP68 rating it makes them dust and water resistant as is required by Australian standards for a fully submersable electrical product.

Where is the issue here??? They are not failing out there and the same applies to ALL submersable heaters on the market. NO heater can claim to be water proof.

I am failing to understand where you are coming from now confused.gif

Do you want to re design the heater, remembering that a Jager is sealed like ALL aquarium heaters? Or are you saying that the Australian standards are wrong now that it can't be claimed that Jagers don't comply and are not approved??

This is starting to sound a little like a witch hunt

Anthony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi All,

Merjo

If the others only have an IPX8 it actually means that they don't offer the same level of protection (or haven't paid to be assesed) in regards to protectivness from dust etc

"IP" ("Ingress Protection") followed by two or three digits. (A third digit is sometimes used. An "x" is used for one of the digits if there is only one class of protection; i.e. IPX4 which addresses moisture resistance only.)

Degrees of Protection - First Digit

The first digit of the IP code indicates the degree that persons are protected against contact with moving parts (other than smooth rotating shafts, etc.) and the degree that equipment is protected against solid foreign bodies intruding into an enclosure.

0 No special protection

1 Protection from a large part of the body such as a hand (but no protection from deliberate access); from solid objects     greater than 50mm in diameter.

2 Protection against fingers or other object not greater than 80mm in length and 12mm in diameter.

3 Protection from entry by tools, wires, etc., with a diameter of thickness greater than 1.0mm.

4 Protection from entry by solid objects with a diameter or thickness greater than 1.0mm

5 Protection from the amount of dust that would interfere with the operation of the equipment.

6 Dust tight.

As far as displaying their approval if you check the printed digits ontop of the heater itself i think you will find the relevent info. Who keeps a box anyway? By printing it on the heater it means it will always be displayed long after the box is thrown away. Whether a heater carries an IPX8 or IP68 is really here nor there because lets face it how much dust actually gets in a aquarium anyway.

Duck,

When did Jager, Aquatopia or Myself ever make a claim that Jager were the only fully submersable heater? If this were the case no other heater would be able to meet IPX8 or IP68 standards.

The reason you buy Jager is for their quality of materials German quality and enginering:

Heater Elements, compare the anount of wire element in a Jager to a cheaper Chinese or European alternative

Electronic Termostat with Saftery Shut off, Most heater have an old fasion style bi metalic strip style thermostat (IE. more risk of sticking on)

They are the only heater able to be recalibrated against a thermometer should the thermostat drift from the actual temperature.

3mm Thick Schott-Duran Glass (Do a web search). The stongest and thickest glass used by any heater. Most other heater only use 2mm Pyrex type glass

Their effeciency and economy to run, A 300w heater heats up to 1000l of water compared to 300l for most chinese alternitives. Therefore you use up to 600w less to heat the same volume not to mention the running times. Add up those Kilowatt hours and see which heater is actually cheaper in the long run.

The peace of mind of a 3 year warranty.

At the end of the day the choice is up to you but i know what brand of heater I use and recomend. I just want people to have all the information and make their own informed decision.

Regards

Anthony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anthony, my comment was not aimed at you directly in any way, except that you were the one who has come forward with the 'official' Jager case here.

That said, I don't think this is the time or place to name name's over who has made those comments to me in the past.

I guess people who represent products/companies don't always weigh their comments correctly, but statement's to that effect have been made in my presence on a number of occasions by people 'selling' the product.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anthony, my comment was not aimed at you directly in any way, except that you were the one who has come forward with the 'official' Jager case here.

That said, I don't think this is the time or place to name name's over who has made those comments to me in the past.

I guess people who represent products/companies don't always weigh their comments correctly, but statement's to that effect have been made in my presence on a number of occasions by people 'selling' the product.

Well I hope not at Auburn Aquarium,

Jagers have enougth other features (As stated above) to seperate them from their competition. Retailers should never resort to lying to get a sale. But sadly i am sure it happens. Logic would dicatate if they arn't submersable they arn't water resistant. It is an easy way to scare a consumer into buying your recomendation though. I have found that 9 out of 10 times when you take the time to explain the real features of a Jager to a customer looking at a new heater they will buy it rather than a cheaper alternative.

Regards

Anthony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anthony there's been some discussions and suggestions going around for some time now that the main advantage of Jager heaters is that they are fully submersible.

Most other heaters that I am aware of state in the instructions to leave the top section out of the water, and the heaters themselves have indicator lines to show where the water level should be.

I think this might be what everyone keeps getting hung up on.

Would it be safe to assume that the seals in a Jager heater are better than the others?

Would the others have passed the Standards assessment with lesser seals, because they clearly state that the top should not be submersed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Baz,

ALL heaters must be submitted to testing to gain a Australian Aproval Number

This number is a Q number in QLD, N in NSW, V in Victoria and so on. During this testing they must show to pass the IP68 or IPX8 standards and other criteria as desrcibed in above posts. I would find it hard to imagine that a aquarium heater(electrical device in close contact to water) that states it can not be submersed could pass this testing and therefore be issued a N number (If tested in NSW). I am not familar with any brands that make such a statement, do they have an approval number on the box or heater? I guess the moral to the story is when buying a heater ensure it has the appropriate aprroval numbers ensuring adherance to Australian Standards? Merjo, Do any of the brands you have listed make claims to not be able to be fully submersed?

Regarding the question of quality of seals, Yes I am sure a German Jager is sealed better than Chinese alternitve, The quality of materials and workmanship alone would see to this. However for the reasons allready outlined in the Aquatopia response it is impossible to create a hermatic seal in a heating/cooling environment. A vacuum would be the only way something could be considered Water Proof (IE No air to expand or contract) Unfornatley the volume of aquarium heaters produced worldwide would not justify the costs of this manufacting option. Therefore such an alternative would blow out costs significantley making such a heater unaffordable.

The debate continues

Anthony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anthony...we applaud your courage in representing Eheim/Jager and putting forward your arguments.

I for one have, since posting this thread purchased 2 more Jagers and i will keep buying these because i know they are a good product.

I haven't had one electrocution yet, touch wood and unlike the cheaper brands, i haven't had the glass crack on me even if i forgot to turn it off during a water change....i think that is more of a reason to buy these heaters over any other product.

My Hydor 400W has what looks to be rust in the heater casing (although it is still working)...these cost almost twice as much as a Jager!!!!

So the question is...is it ok to completely submerge the Jagers?

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...