<br>

Can anyone help? I really want to use amazon swords in some the set-up where they "fit" and i can't

<br>

thanks in advance

<br>

-shaun

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>amazon swords (i think) are one the plants that cannot absorb nutrients through their leaves (i.e the water strata) (all the plants you mentioned absorb from the water)

<br>

<br>

you need to fertilise the gravel around the roots of the swords

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>pop down to the garden section of ur hardware house and get some fern spikes....shove it in the gravel near the swords and see how it goes.

<br>

<br>

Or empire has told me that u can also use clay (digged from the backyard) which is high in iron.

<br>

<br>

Goodluck

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Alan Caboolture</STRONG><BR><BR>One, they do not like water movement around thier roots ie U/G filters.

<br>

<br>

Two, they like a rich substrate, if your tank is too clean they die off. A deep sand bank and a couple of balls of clay around thier roots.

<br>

<br>

Three, they don't like fluro lights natural or incandesant bulbs work Can't advise on M.H.'s as have never used them.

<br>

<br>

I plant my swords in squat clay pots with dirty gravel and clay balls and hide the pot with rocks or drift wood. Can't say that I have been 100% successful with all varieties tho.

<br>

<br>

<br>

Alan

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>I used to keep mine in the circular take away containers, at the bottom I would put 1/2 a fern spike, although I feel they stil have too much phosphates leach initially (maybe i plant them not deep enough)

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>I have to agree with the root feeding suggestion. Mine do fine in a deep bed of normal fine gravel with the Manutec Fern Spikes bundled into the roots. However I also have one in a tank with laterite mixed in and the big plant is going crazy...

<br>

<br>

As far as lighting goes I think that they do appreciate some light - fluoro seems to work fine for me, and sunlight really makes them flower.

<br>

<br>

However I do have them in 6x2x2's with only one fluoro on top and they do grow in that. The species may play a part though as the one i have most of and is the big plant that goes crazy reproducing itself is a giant species called cordiflorus I think. Large heart shaped leaves growing up to 3 feet tall.

<br>

<br>

I have some other varieties such as the common type and a red type but they seem to be a little more demanding.

<br>

<br>

Perhaps try to get a hold of this cordiflorus giant type as it seems to be incredibly hardy to me - growing in my malawi and tang tanks successfully.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: crashfragment</STRONG><BR><BR>thanks guys those suggestions sound great. i might be able to add amazon swords to these biotopes after all. just a couple of questions...what are fern spikes?

can i get them at garden supply centres?

<br>

and does iron or phosphate affect ph or water quality?

<br>

thanks

<br>

-shaun

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: emp1re</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

u can buy it at woolworth in the gardening section for approx. $2.95.

<br>

<br>

it come in a 6-7cm stick form.

<br>

<br>

i used this for my amozon sword, and it grow wild and huge (40-45cm size). And it send out runner regularly.

<br>

TIA

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi there,

<br>

If you want to attach anubias nana to driftwood, try putting some java moss on the roots an attach them all to the wood.

<br>

But u must remember that the part where the new leaves are growing is where the new roots are also growing, this will be the whitish roots as opposed to the green or matured ones, imo the new roots will anchor better.

<br>

Also how long before you cut the cable tie and relaise it didnt anchor, anubias are slow growing and should be given a month or two or sometimes even more, this all depends on you tank setup.

<br>

Let us know how your tank is setup and maybe others can help as well.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: emp1re</STRONG><BR><BR>best to use cotton thread to tire down the plant. 'cause after a couple of months, the cotton will just rot away, hence u don't go thru the hassle of removing the tire

<p>

<BR><STRONG>Author: emp1re</STRONG><BR><BR>Anubias are a very slow growing family of plants, and of this family, nana is one of the slowest growing species. With high levels of CO2 injection, N,P,K and trace elements you will still find that the plant will take several months to attach properly.

<br>

So for optimum growth and development really it's all back to basics really of plant husbandry. For Anubias;

<br>

-Correct amount of light (about 1-1.5wpg in tanks <100g and <20" deep for anubias)

<br>

-CO2 between 20-30ppm (rough rule of thumb pH of 7, kH around 120ppm is around 20ppm of CO2). Lower can still work for Anubias, they're not as demanding as some....

<br>

-Fertilize with K regularly - use either commercial K additives or make your own using K2SO4 / KNO3 / KCl (correct the mixture depending on what your system is lacking in the NO3 department etc). Aim for around 10-15ppm of K.

<br>

-Make sure Fe is within good limits - fertilize regularly for Fe, aim to maintain 0.1-0.15ppm. I personally use Flourish Iron but there are others out there which are also quite good.

<br>

Hope this helps

<br>

Adam

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I have some wood with anubias nana, I have had it for a little over a month, in an unfertilized tank with no CO2 injection. There were probably about 10 leaves on the log when I bought it, now there are about 20, the stems are twice as long, and the roots have grown off the log and buried about an inch into the gravel. I have no idea why this is happening, as I know that it is a slow growing plant, but from this experience, it would make me think twice about saying that.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Your conditions in your tank must coincidentally be just right by chance. Few people seem to have optimum balance so this needs to be altered by additional co2 infusion and ferts.

<br>

Yes Anubias is definately a slow growing family of plants. 10 leaves in a month compared to a hundred or a few hundred on some Hygro. corymbosa / Hygro. stricta in as much time under its optimum conditions? Think comparison, not standalone plant. 'Slow' is a relative term, not an integral precise measurement.

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I do know that they are slow growing plants, I am not saying my growth is typical, but if I had no other knowledge of anubia growth, I would be mislead by the growth of mine.

<br>

I know that 10 leaves dosent sound like a lot, but pound for pound, it has produced more plant mass than hygro, or other relatively fast growing plants I have had. I certainly wouldnt say that anubias a fast growing plants, just as I said, mine seemed to have produced atypical results.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: fishboi2000</STRONG><BR><BR>i didnt expect it to be that slow growing, looks like i will have to wait alot longer, plant seems healthy so i will just stick it out. Thanks for all the input once again!

<br>

I'm trying to grow some hair grass and lilaeopsis...in order to get a good ground covergae is it better to seperate the clumps into smaller pieces or plant them in bunches (as sold by the store). Would appreciate some advise from the veterans..thanks in advance

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Brett4Perth</STRONG><BR><BR>Wouldn't rate myself a veteran, not yet anyway!

<br>

I doubt it matters much how you plant it, individual plantlets is very fiddly though and hard to keep from floating to the surface. My practice is to break each clump into several smaller ones and plant these. Find you need a fairly fine substrate (2-3mm) and lots of light. Good Luck

<br>

Brett

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>hairgrass = co2 + root fertilisers

<br>

it cannot absorb nutrients though its 'leaves' or shoots.. it has to absorb them through it's roots because in nature it does not spend all year round under water but is mostly seen grown 'emmersed'

<br>

when you get it, separate it in to many little clumps of maybe 6 or 7 shoots and plant with tweezers.. one clump should take about an hour to do, but you will get the most growth when the hair grass starts putting out runners

<br>

lilaeopsis is difficult to grow and I wouldnt recommend it as a floor plants, similar to hair grass but grows slower.

Who has decent CO2 levels on a 400l+ tank & how did you achieve it?

I dont have spastic money as I'm on a pension so suggesting getting a $500-800 Tunze setup isn't going to help me, but if you'll buy me one of find a cheap one 2nd hand....

Can you use the regulators that people use for home brew?

I plan to inject it into a pump so I don't need a diffuser/reactor - just something to get the gas out of a BOC bottle at the right sort of rate.

Thx in advance.

Ash

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: scitzfish</STRONG><BR><BR>yes and no, the java moss will compete with the algae for both light and nutrients. The problem being java moss has the habit of clogging EVERYTHING. A bit of a catch 22, it's probably best to deal with cause of the problem and not to create a cure. So cut down light and do more freq. water changes (with RO water preferably) to remove nutrients. HTH

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks scitzfish, There really isnt too much to clog at the moment, I am only running a millenium dual chamber HOB type filter (another reason for high nutrients) and the reason for wanting the moss is dual purpose, mainly for aesthetic reasons, to make the tank look greener and more hospitable, and I hoped that it might help lower nutrients.

<br>

<br>

Just another question, if I was to use RO water for changes (which I can do), would I need to use anything to buffer the pH to stop it going too low?

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Russel says he dosent mind anubias in his tank, but I can take the Java moss, and shove it up my filter!

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>Just be aware that with plenty of light and nutrients, Java Moss can grow really fast; I started off with a 3cm ball of it a 3 months ago, and have been removing 4cm balls of it every two weeks for the past 1.5 months to stop it chocking all the other plants...

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks PHL0703,

<br>

<br>

I know how invasive it is, as I am taking it from another tank to put in the oscar tank. I already harvest handfulls of it every couple of weeks, but I have plenty of people that take it off my hands, as I cant stand to throw anything away lol.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>I know what you mean; so far I have takers, as I harvest about 2kg of usable plants per month from my tank, but not sure how long before I saturate their tanks as well. Was away for two weeks, and found out that Limnophilia will actually spread across a tank with runners...

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>Apparently between 1 to infinite years, depending on your planting, and if you have substrate heating. You can always add laterite balls to replenish parts that you need.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Thank you..... but fluorite last forever. Am i right??

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Brett4Perth</STRONG><BR><BR>When you ask how long laterite/flourite lasts,

<br>

I presume you mean how long till the iron in these substates is exhausted.

<br>

I guess it would depend on the nature of the plants you are growing, like any "fertilizer" heavy feeding rapid growing plants will use it more quickly. I would suspect it lasts for several years, but I doubt either is "infinate".

<br>

<br>

Brett

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>Flourite apparently lasts for a long while, but not sure how much Fe it releases compared to laterite. I don't think anyone has a setup that is static for long enough to find out.

<br>

<br>

I know that laterite has ninding site that can be recharged with Fe from the water if you can get a slow flow of water through it, hence substrate heating.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>indeed, laterite has some sort of negative charge to it or something like that, and attracts postive charge (might have it the wrong way round) iron (FE+) to it, so in theory wil last forever if you keep dosing iron

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>indeed, laterite has some sort of negative charge to it or something like that, and attracts postive charge (might have it the wrong way round) iron (FE+) to it, so in theory wil last forever if you keep dosing iron

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Will put the theory into practice

<br>

<br>

Thanx guys

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

It's the cation binding site, and you'll need to get the Fe there in the first place; normal setups will not get the Fe there, as you need a slow water flow though the laterite, hence heating cable.

<br>

<br>

If you are really interested, read Dupla 10 point for an Optimum aquarium, or if you really keen (and very lucky, as the English ed of the book is no longer in print), get The Optimum Aquarium by Horst & Kipper.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>keener still you can watch the optimum aquarium video if you can get your hands on it

Richard 'Nornicle'

<br>

<P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>Actually the video is easier to obtain than the book; I missed out on one on eBay, stopping at US$25, as I thought that was a lot for a second hand book, but later noticed second hand copied were being sold for as much as US$60!

<br>

<br>

Not that this is too relevent, but the tank contains 2 marble angels, 2 black line rainbows, a glass tetra (very nervous), a silver shark (small), a platinum gourami, an eel tail catfish, a suicidal killfish (panchax of some kind?) and an upside down catfish.

<p></P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>java moss and anubias are low light plants and do fine with 2 light imo...

<br>

they are 2x 30w tubes is that right???

<br>

Have u considered some co2 and fertiliser?

<br>

<br>

<p>

<br>

hungsta@hotmail.com

<br>

Punchbowl,Sydney.</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I had thought about the CO2 and fertilzer, but I dont really see the point. Just with a single flouro, the Java moss needed harvesting every couple of months, and the bolbitus is spreading really quickly. I have only had the anubias for a week, so I will have to see how they go, but if the growth of the other plants is anything to go by, then I dont think I will need any growth aids.

<br>

<br>

Yep, they are both 30w tubes.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>just for comparison.. my anubias nana and java moss is doing great in a 2ft with with absolutely no light and they are fine.... just grow a bit slower but the leaves are relatively the same size

<br>

<br>

HTH

<p>

<br>

hungsta@hotmail.com

<br>

Punchbowl,Sydney.</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks hungsta, I will see how they go with the 2 tubes, the tank looks a little nicer with the 2 tubes, and I am sure the plants wont complain. I honestly dont think I could get too much better growth with fertiliser and CO2.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi -

<br>

<br>

I suspect greater light intensity will = greater growth in java moss. I am growing mine outdoors under 50% shade cloth - which is still pretty bright!

<br>

<br>

It grows like a rocket . So I think you'll simply find that your plants grow quicker (it won't harm them).

<br>

<br>

HTH -

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>The Java moss is great, even in the last week, as you said, the growth has been visible, whereas normally it takes a while to see it spread. About 3/4 of the substrate is covered with Java Moss, at a depth of about 6 to 8 inches and very dense. I was worried about it choking the bolbitus, but it dosent seem to be doing any harm.

<br>

<br>

How do you keep the algae out of the outdoors tank under shade cloth? I have a tank on my verandah surrounded by matchstick blinds, and I am continually cleaning out a bright green slimy algae off the plants and glass.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi -

<br>

<br>

In 50% shade I dont have algal troubles - but there are no fish in the tubs with the java moss.

<br>

<br>

HTH=

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi guys,

<br>

<br>

I honestly believe ALL planted setups will benefit from CO2. Even though slow growing plants can do well without it, they always do better WITH it.

<br>

<br>

Algae problems disappear when your plants grow fast enough to outcompete them for nutrients. I would fill a tank with water sprite, add co2, and balanced nutrients, and though its counterintuitive to add nutrients to a tank with algae, the good growth of the plants will actually reduce/eliminate the algae. There have been a few reasons proposed for this, including better algae ability to thrive with a nutrient imbalance, and possible allelopathic chemicals released by certain plants, but anyway in practice it works!

<br>

<br>

Give it a try, most ppl who supplement co2 never look back..

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>The tank on my verandah may perhaps benefit from CO2, but my 3 foot planted tank is fine, I wouldnt want any more growth from the plants, would become a pain in the butt, I dont get any algae growth at all in the tank atm.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>Yes of course you are right searlsy! When i said all plants would benefit i forgot to take into account that fast growin equals more maintenance lol To some ppl fast growth is definitely NOT a benefit lol

<br>

<br>

Should have said benefit to plant growth

<br>

<br>

But yes, sounds like your inside tank is well balanced

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Actually, now that you mention it, extra growth wouldnt go astray, it would give me the oportunity to trade plants if I can get things moving along. You have almost talked me into it!

<br>

<br>

So if I set up a CO2 system, will this affect my fish, and will it cause extra algal growth, or as you said, will it make the plants take the nutrients out of the water more effectively, therfore out competing the algae?

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>OK, firstly, there are many good guides on this at www.thekrib.com and other such sites.

<br>

<br>

Usually when you DIY CO2 via the yeast and sugar method, there is little risk of overdosing your tank. The common sense things apply, such as watching your fish for signs of respiratory distress in the first few days of putting it on, and monitoring the pH. CO2 can affect the pH as it complexes as carbonic acid in water, so, higher co2 levels bring pH levels down. The extent of this effect is dependant on the KH of your water, so if your kH is low, you can just add 1 tsp of sodium bicarbonate to buffer your water so that the added co2 does not change your pH much. Like i said before, most of these concerns are for ppl using pressurised co2 gas where there is a much larger risk of overdose, so don't let these concerns put you off..

<br>

<br>

I doubt it will cause any extra algae growth. However, you may actually need to supplement nutrients if your plants grow fast enough to begin to show deficiencies. In this respect I find it useful to have a fast growing plant in amongst the slow growers. By observing the deficiencies which show up much faster among the fast growers, you can keep the tank in balance, and if you accidentally overdose a little, the fast growers can quickly absorb the excess. Bear in mind though that too much fast growers and they can outcompete the slower growing plants. I use riccia fluitans floating in this role, as it is easy to control the mass of it, and easy to see deficiencies.

<br>

<br>

HTH

/P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for that, I will keep that in mind, do you think Java moss would be a good fast growing indicator?

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>No problem. Java moss can grow relatively quick in good conditions, however, its still considered a 'slow grower' by other plant's standards. What you can try if you don't have riccia is stem plants such as Hygrophila sp, Ceratopteris sp (water sprite), etc.. Just be diligent with your pruning or else these often take over the tank, to the detriment of your slow growers (such as anubias, java fern, bolbitis).

<br>

<br>

To give you an example, I have a 'low light' tank such as yours, its a 2x15x15, with around 45W of normal T8 fluoros over it, DIY CO2 1 2litre bottle, planted with anubias in the foreground, bolbitis attached to wood on one side, java fern 'windelov' on the other on rocks, and riccia floating. Whenever the riccia slows down in growth, or grows smaller growing points, or turns a more yellow colour, i know to up the supplements. The riccia mass is simply divided and taken out every time it gets too large... In addition, the riccia being at the surface does not take out as much of the co2, as part of the plants have atmospheric co2 available to them, this is also the reason why plants grow faster and easier emersed than submersed.

<br>

<br>

Does anyone know of a good plant for ground coverage? I need it to cover the entire foreground gravel etc. Also where I could get it if you have any suggestions.

<br>

<br>

Andrew

<br>

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: wazzablunt</STRONG><BR><BR>I would suggest hair grass. Great plant and when a complete covering is reached it looks amazing. Your LFS should have some or be able to get some in. If your buying in bulk (i would suggest you do) aquamail.com.au has the cheapest im pretty sure.

<br>

<br>

HTH

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Brett4Perth</STRONG><BR><BR>Hair grass looks good if you give it lots of light.

<br>

Pygmy chain sword (E.tenellus) is another good foreground plant that will succeed in lower light conditions. Some of the shorter crypts also make good foreground plants in tanks with less light.

<br>

<br>

Brett

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MrRolla</STRONG><BR><BR>Im also interested in getting some plants to cover my substrate, but will my bronze cory's mind having grass all over the place? or do they prefer gravel?

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: The Cichlid Man</STRONG><BR><BR>Baby Swords, Baby Rubra, Baby Radicans, Hair Grass (Eleocharis), Spawning Grass (Lilaeopsis), Chain Swords, Chain Sagittaria.

<br>

<br>

Regards,

<br>

Ben

<br>

i have just bought a driftwood that is about 18" long and i was wondering if it is possible to grow a plant on it and what plant do i need to buy

<br>

<br>

<br>

thanks omar

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chuckmeister</STRONG><BR><BR>Most of the time I've seen it, its java fern just tied to your piece of driftwood with a piece of cotton or string, fishing line may be ok too. If you use cotton, by the time it decays you'd have a good root bond to your piece of driftwood. I've never done it though and others will answer better

<br>

<br>

Cheers Charlie

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: beardie</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

I use cotton when attaching plants to driftwood/rocks. Works well however like chuckmeister said, others use fishing line or some sort of string.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: akaomar</STRONG><BR><BR>hi

<br>

do you know what plant i should use and how much i would be looking at and how long will it take so the roots can stick to the driftwood

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

thanks omar

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Anubias spp...

<br>

<br>

Java ferns....

<br>

<br>

Java moss, willow moss etc...

<br>

<br>

For roots to stick to the wood depends on how fast the plant is growing and how fast the roots will attach itself, it varies but about a month or 2.

<br>

<br>

I used twist ties, cable ties, i dont bother with cotton.

<br>

<br>

A method i was told is....to wrap the roots with java moss and cotton wool and then fishing line.

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

HTH

<br>

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I can vouch for the use of rubber bands, I used them a few weeks ago to attach some bolbitus and anubias to a piece of driftwood, and it worked well.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: The Cichlid Man</STRONG><BR><BR>Best way i have found to get the plants to hold onto the drift wood is with fishing line wrapped around the wood and roots of the plant. Once attached i simply cut off the fishing line.

<br>

<br>

Best plants for this would be Anubias barteri, Amazon Sword,

<br>

Java Fern, Java Moss and Riccia Fluitans.

<br>

<br>

Hope all goes well.

<br>

<br>

Regards,

<br>

Ben

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: akaomar</STRONG><BR><BR>thanks for the reply i will try it out

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

thanks omar

</DIV>

<br>

<br>

Any ideas?

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>wait a couple of days to let it settle again

<br>

<br>

Generally it happens when you up root giant sword plants etc as well, but after several days should settle down again

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>I actually don't bother, as the mulm is fertiliser for my plants (but most of my plants are directly rooted into the substrate).

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Alan Caboolture</STRONG><BR><BR>Have you ever gone on a collecting trip and ever found heathy aquatic plants growing in nice clean aquarium type sand/gravel ???

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>This is the first time in nearly 18 months I have done anything other than clean the glass and change the water. I wasnt actually talking about the mulm trapped within the gravel, I have never syphoned that out, just the detritus that had collected beneath and around the driftwood, which has now settled over the substrate. I guess the best thing to do is gently syphon it off next water change.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: yevrah</STRONG><BR><BR>As for negatingt he effects of crap building under rocks and drift wood, generally i lay the rocks and driftwood first, then layer on the gravel. This means that there isnt a gap between ornaments and gravel so you don't get that build up.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Clint in Melbourne</STRONG><BR><BR>What filtration do you have? If you have good water circulation and good mechanical filtration, the water should clear up pretty quick, at least mine does when I stir things up. Also, every time you do a water change, it's a good idea to gently siphon off any excess mulm from the substrate.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Clint, I have a dynaflow HOB filter on the tank, so there certainly isnt enormous amounts of circulation. The main problem was that I moved all the driftwood etc around in an attempt ro rid my tank of java moss (futile) which stirred up all the rubbish, which subsequently settled out onto the gravel etc. I think now that it is settled out, I will just gently syphon it off, and try to minimise the moving off the wood etc. More circ would probably help keep the rubbish hidden under the wood etc though.

<br>

<br>

For a planted aquarium, 5x2x2, with various fish (cichlids and a couple of others), how long should I be looking at having the lights on every day?

<br>

<br>

I have a timer, so I can turn it on or off in 15min periods all day. The issue is:

<br>

<br>

I wanna have the tank on at 7am - so I can feed at 7:30 before i go to work.

<br>

<br>

I get home at 6, and would like to have the light on till about 11pm (when I go to bed most nights).

<br>

<br>

so the questions are:

<br>

<br>

1. How long total "lights on" every day?

<br>

2. Is it okay to turn the light off during the day for a couple of hours (so I can keep them on till later)?

<br>

<br>

Any ideas?

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: emp1re</STRONG><BR><BR>If u have your light on from 7am to 11pm that 16 hours of light.

<br>

<br>

having such a long period of lights may cause cloudiness of the water and promotes algae growth.

<br>

<br>

i suggest 10-11 hours of light duration. have the timer turn the light on at 11.30am and turn off at 10.30pm.

<br>

<br>

u can feed the fishes without turning on the light in the morning and be able to inspect the fishes when u feed it at night.

</DIV><BR><BR></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: meesterclarence</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi. I'd say anywhere between 8-12 hours per day is a good range. I leave my Cichlid lights for 10-12, and my salt water's from 8-10. Have been doing so for years, with great results. Good luck

<br>

<br>

Paul

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>I agree with Paul 8-10 hours a day is plenty.

<br>

<br>

Saves on algae as well.

<br>

<br>

A timer from Coles will set u back about $8. Worth the expense.

<br>

<br>

<P><STRONG>Author: carneira</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for the help guys

<br>

<br>

I have a timer and it works great.

<br>

<br>

I have it set to be on now from 7 - 9am then 3 - 11pm

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi carneira,

<br>

<br>

I have a heavily planted tank that has lights on from about 8.30 to about midnight (or even a couple of hours longer, depending on when I decide to go to sleep). I have never experienced cloudiness due to long light periods, biologically that doesn't make much sense. I am sure that firemouth's cloudiness has a different cause.

<br>

<br>

As for algal growth: we used to turn off the lights for a couple of hours during the day and that certainly reduced algal growth. That was before we used plant supplements to promote plant growth. Since I am using Seachem florish and florish iron, I leave the lights on for the entire period and have no algal growth to speak of. If you have a planted tank and you maximize plant growth, then the algae will have nothing to grow on.

<br>

<br>

i want to know how to make my own fertiliser.

<br>

a bottle from the LFS for 7 bucks goes very quick.

<br>

<br>

PLease help.

<br>

<br>

Recipes anyone, is there a chemist in the house????

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

hi,

<br>

Try contacting Craig Thompson, CThompson here.

<br>

He makes PMDD's (Poor Mans Dosing Drops... aka homebrew daily fertilizer) that he uses on a planted and CO2-fed tank.

<br>

<br>

Laurie

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: TheCichlidTank</STRONG><BR><BR>PMDD

<br>

<br>

" 1 Tbsp (~9g) Chelated Trace Element Mix

<br>

(7% Fe, 1.3% B, 2% Mn, 0.06% Mo, 0.4% Zn, 0.1% Cu, EDTA, DTPA)

<br>

2 Tsp (~14g) K2SO4 (potassium sulfate)

<br>

1 Tsp (~6g) KNO3 (potassium nitrate)

<br>

2.5 Tbsp (~33g) MgSO4.7H2O (fully hydrated magnesium sulfate, aka epsom

<br>

salts; omit if already present in trace element mix)

<br>

300mL distilled H2O

<br>

0.5mL 9M HCl (optional)"

<br>

<br>

ref.

<br>

Control of Algae in Planted Aquaria

<br>

<br>

warning:

I don't know what your knowledge level of chemistry is but the 9M HCl = strong hydrochloric acid and it will burn you quite seriously and may require medical attention if you get it on your skin. It is optional and is only used if the mix is to be stored for any length of time so is probably best left out. If you are have 'heaps of plants' then they will be feeding copiously and you will need to dose daily with PMDD. I also suggest getting some reliable test kits (forget aquasonic), and measure your nitrate levels and your phosphate levels. You want phosphate to be limiting and so equal 0ppm (or close to it). There is no point adding fertiliser if your other factors are out of whack. Read the article in that link as it will explain everything in detail. If you don't understand any of it just add to this thread and we'll see what we can do to help explain it as the articel can get heavy going.

<br>

<br>

Alternatively you can also get away with just getting one chemical, potassium nitrate, and dose with that for your nitrate source.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

Alternatively you can also get away with just getting one chemical, potassium nitrate, and dose with that for your nitrate source

<br>

<br>

interesting... I found by a rather adhoc and imprecise process of experimentation that iron/Fe (and carbon dioxide but a $-deficiency prevented me from fiddling with that variable) seemed to be the limiting factor on my planted tank. It's a 6x2 with trickle filter and a fair fishload (tropicals at the time... cichlids are the limiting factor nowadays he he) so there was a fair bit of nitrate production going on.

<br>

Unless it's a purely plant tank (no fish) I can't imagine a need to add nitrogen.

<br>

<br>

ps: I was using (and continue to use) Gonna-Turn-Me-Into-A-Poor Man Dosing Drops and other fertilizers bought from aquamail.com.au at the time. When that lot runs out I'll be looking to make some PMDD but finding the ingredients cheaply is much harder than finding a recipe.

<br>

<br>

My 2 cents.

<br>

Laurie

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>hey cichlid tank

<br>

<br>

are u in sydney?

<br>

and may i ask where u get ur ingredients from???

<br>

<br>

Thanx for the recipe.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi guys,

<br>

<br>

This is where I get this stuff from in Perth..

<br>

<br>

Potassium sulfate.. sulfate of potash in the garden section of your hardware house or bunnings.. pick up a box of chelated trace nutrients there too.. and maybe some chelated iron in the same section again if the trace nutrients dont contain enough iron..

<br>

<br>

Magnesium sulfate the cheapest place is garden section of bigW of all places.. 1kg $5.. havent been able to find it in much larger quantities as yet.

<br>

<br>

and potassium nitrate is the hardest to find.. But make sure that your tank is really nitrate limited before you add this.. Some places think you're like a kid playing with bomb recipes off the net when you ask them for it.. chemists sell it really expensive.. Best bet is a hydroponics place or a farm supply store..

<br>

<br>

HTH

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: TheCichlidTank</STRONG><BR><BR>With plants, iron certainly can be a limiting factor but it is not generally the case. Nitrogen, potassium and phosphorus are the three main elements needed by plants. That's why they put an N:P:K ratio on plant fertilizers. As it turns out if phosphorus is at high concentrations iron will be converted into a form that is not useable by plants and so would seem to be absent from the tank. Symptoms of iron deficiency would result, such as yellowing-transparency of new leaves in fast growing plants. However, it is algae that we want to control in a planted tank and it seems that when phosphorus is present in concentrations higher than nitrogen then the algae will outcompete the higher plants and an algae bloom will result. If the phosphorus concentrations can be brought down to near zero the higher plants are more effective competitors for nitrate than algae is and so algae densities will decline. You can then dose with a nitrate source to maintain this balance. Higher plants still need some phosphorus for growth but there is generally enough in the food we feed to take care of that. The added benefit of this is that as the plants begin to grow they consume the nitrate and because the algae density has be reduced the higher plants also consume the phosphates that enter the tank via feeding etc and you can maintain these low algae denisties. You will never completely get rid of the algae from your tank but it can be reduced to non-visible levels if you follow the principles outlined in that article.

<br>

<br>

Hungsta. I work in a lab so I have a ready supply of chemcials. I have the tanks set up at work and just ask the lab assistant to make me up two batches instead of one.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>

<br>

hmm I probably should get a phosphorous test kit but I expect I'm adding phosphorous in my water changes as at least part of the water catchment around here is farming country nicely laden with superphosphate.

<br>

<br>

Laurie

<br>

<br>

<br>

The questions I have are:

<br>

<br>

1. Will a 4x14x20 tank filled with plants do much to reduce the nitrate levels of a 2000+ litre system?

<br>

<br>

2. Will a 250 watt (GE MVR250) metal halide light be powerful enough and provide the right light to make the plants thrive?

<br>

<br>

3. Would it be worth sitting the tank in front of a window to get the afternoon sun directly on the tank or would this be detrimental to the plants?

<br>

<br>

4. What sort of plants would provide the best nitrate reduction (ie broad leafed, lots of small leaves etc)?

<br>

<br>

5. What sort of substrate is best for the plants?

<br>

<br>

6. Will nitrates and light alone be enough to feed the plants or will I need to add another form of nutrition?

<br>

<br>

7. What sort of clean up crew would do well in the tank? I was thinking bristlenose, but would they eat the leaves? Failing a good colony option, maybe use it as a fry growout tank?

<br>

<br>

8. Is it worth putting bunches of plants in pots to keep them closer to the surface, or even using floating weed?

<br>

<br>

If I think of anything else I'll add it.

<br>

<br>

Thanks folks.

<br>

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Snigglyfox</STRONG><BR><BR>I'm no expert but here is what I think.

<br>

<br>

- The plants will definitely remove nitrates.

<br>

- Sunlight will encourage algae and make temperature flucuate

<br>

- Fast growing plants will absorb the most nitrates. I'd recommend wysteria, India Star or duck weed (but it get's real annoying at cleaning time).

<br>

- I find Swords, Lotuses, anubias and larger plant appreciate root tabs rather than liquid foods (include nitrates).

<br>

- I use bristlenoses, whiptails, SAE's and ottos,

<br>

- Pots are good if you're moving things around or you like vacuuming a lot. I'm too lazy personally.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: griffin</STRONG><BR><BR>I'm really not the one to give advice on planted tanks as I've never done to well with them but one point I will make:

<br>

<br>

We've got a 2ft tank which runs off a corner filter and an UG with crushed coral substrate. Despite being a very basic tank it has for quite some time been our best and most reliable tank for raising very delicate Tang fry/species, a great place to "nurture" them if necessary to get them really thriving.

<br>

<br>

I've put this down to the fact that the tank has a clump of java moss in it that grows really well, I have always assumed that it's removing nitrates and thus making a good environment for Tangs which are quite sensitive to nitrate. We are now moving to plenums in 2 of our 5x2x2's, will see how they compare to 2 other 5x2x2 Tang tanks without plenums.

<br>

<br>

So for good nitrate removal fast growing "weedy" species are probably best I would guess.

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

<br>

Jess

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>substrate-you can get fluorite or cheaper alternatives like laterite, peat or even soil (depends on you)

<br>

<br>

plants-something like java fern (windelov one looks nice), java moss are good (i prefer willow moss) vals are very good at nitrate removal...

<br>

<br>

<br>

Is this tank primarily setup to remove nitrate?

<br>

If so then get the typical weed-like plants and a bunch of bn, the tank will be great as a grow out tank too.

<br>

<br>

If not then, you must consider co2, without it the range of plants that you can keep is limited.

<br>

<br>

HTH

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hyperdive</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks guys.

<br>

<br>

I'm not interested in a pretty tank. The tank will be set up purely for nitrate reduction. If it's ugly I don't care as long as it works. I'm not keen to add CO2 if possible so plants that will thrive on nitrates and fish waste are all I need.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: kevkoi</STRONG><BR><BR>Pack it chock full of val (thick val, thin val) and u'll have a fast growing plant that can tolerate your alkali conditions and takes nitrates out of the water. Only trouble is u've got to keep trimming them back at the surface. As long as u've got good light, add a root tablet once in a blue moon, the val will grow and nitrates would be low.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Rumpig</STRONG><BR><BR>Gidday Andy,

<br>

I use Java moss in my sump, it seems to work really well. I occasionally pull it all out, wash it out and cull it. It also thrives under 24hr lighting (which kills most other plants).

<br>

<br>

How are you thinking of setting it up?

<br>

<br>

Are you having plants in your sump or in a seperate tank that is in between your mini-reef and pump.

<br>

<br>

A tank of that size will make a big difference Andy.

<br>

<br>

If you are having plants in your sump maybe concider having dividers in it to channel the water flow so it doesn't just take the shortest route between the outlet of the bio-tower and the pump intake. This will make the water flow through more plants and therefore increase the amount of nitrates that can be removed.

<br>

<br>

If you have the space try having a full tank joined to the sump by a hose or something and have the pump in this tank, this will allow you to have substrate inwhich to plant your plants in (allows the growth of taller plants such as wisteria and val) and also you can use it as a grow out tank (depending on whether or not you have protected your pump so it cannot eat all your fry)

<br>

<br>

Jess, I couldn't agree more! Having java moss in a fry tank makes a huge difference! Not only does it absorb nitrates but the fry also seem to feed off it. I find it invaluable.

<br>

<br>

Duck weed is pretty useless IMHO as it is only a surface plant and therefore absorbs less nitrates than other plants that utilise the entire water coloumn. It is also really messy and will infest other tanks.

<br>

<br>

Mick

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hyperdive</STRONG><BR><BR>I am planning on using a 4 footer that is just part of the system. I'll increase the water flow to it as well to turn over more water.

<br>

<br>

I'd really like to know whether to just put it in front of a window to get the afternoon sunlight or whether to use the 250w MH light.

<br>

<br>

The water will come straight from the sump and back into the other end of the minireef, so there will be less nitrates going through the minireef, hopefully bringing the total amount down in the system.

<br>

<br>

Does anyone have a heap of val to sell me or swap for fish?

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>G'day Andy,

<br>

<br>

Don't have much time at the moment to write a lengthy reply but I did think it necessary to comment on one major aspect - you are not keen for Co2 induction, however I can tell you now that to have any reasonable growth of plants to consume nutrients, you must have the right amount of *all* nutrients there to start with. This means that you will have to maintain high levels of CO2 as well as Iron and all of the other nutrients.

<br>

<br>

As you could imagine, keeping CO2 levels at the necessary levels in a 2000L system could be extremely expensive and difficult! Dont' believe people that will tell you that just use Val or something similar as it has not got difficult requirements - *all* plants require *all* of the nutrients. The only way to significantly reduce nitrates on a stocked system on that size would to have one VERY densely planted 4' tank (if you are using a 4') and maintain CO2, lighting and iron, potassium (etc) levels. If plants are not growing, they are not producing biomass, therefore not consuming nutrients (the whole goal of the system in the first place) - therefore you need to keep them growing very quicklly to consume a decent amount of nutrients at the right levels. This means supplying the range of nutrients that are not in excess (i.e. in your system nitrate, or a form of nitrogen is in excess). What I'm getting at, is that to maintain a densely planted tank where you will notice the nitrate reduction is to have high concentration levels of CO2, iron, potassium and other micro and macro nutrients in order to grow the plants at any decent rate.

<br>

<br>

Not saying it can't be done, it's very possible. However there is a greater picture of the practicality and logistics of if to think of I suppose. Personally I would just maintain water changes mate

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: scurge19</STRONG><BR><BR>Andy,

<br>

<br>

Since you said the look of the tank doesn't matter to you at all, I think this could be done quite easily.

<br>

<br>

The type of plants you want to have are ones which grow fast; stem plants, vallis and amazon swords come to mind. CO2 is not essential at all. My planted tank has no CO2 and is going great, it could be better, but still the growth is so fast I have to clean it out every 2-3 weeks and there is like a bucket full of plants after cleaning. If you want CO2 do a DIY one, they are very easy.

<br>

<br>

Direct or natural sunlight will be bad for your plants and will only cause algae problems. With your metal halide light alone, that will be more than plenty.. I even think it is too much and is asking for algae troubles.

<br>

<br>

I don't really see the point of this though... water changes and good filtration will do exactly the same thing as the plants will do and is much easier to do IMO.

<br>

<br>

Make a visit to www.thekrib.com and you will finf all your answers there regarding plants, CO2, virtually anything to do with planted tanks.

<br>

<br>

Oh ye, I do have a heap of val if you want

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: griffin</STRONG><BR><BR>Andy - if you do end up doing CO2 injection into the system I remember that Sabine did a talk on a beautiful planted tank she has....it a had a very simple CO2 generating system in it that required very little maintenance and was simple and cheap to make. Maybe she could give you some details about it?

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

<br>

Jess

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for the compliment, Jess. The CO2 system I am using is ultra-simple (even I can manage it, despite kids and work - lol). All you need is a 2 l PET bottle, airhose and an airstone, some sugar, water and most importantly yeast. My setup lasts about 10 days. And it works a charm in combination with fast growing plants (that's really important for nitrate removal) and fertilising with some aquatic plant fertiliser (I use Seachem flourish and flourish iron).

<br>

<br>

Andy, to give you an idea how well this works for nitrate removal: I feed my fish twice a day and change about 20% water every week or two (or whenever I get around to it) and I cannot measure any nitrate in the water.

<br>

<br>

To answer some of your other questions:

<br>

<br>

I am not sure about the halide lights. They may be too powerful for plants, and I am not sure if they have the correct spectrum. Sunlight may cause temperature fluctuations, but does not cause algal blooms, as long as you keep the plants fertilised.

<br>

<br>

Java moss is a good grower, but beware, that it can invade filter inlets etc and become a nuisance (unless that is what you are after). I have never minded, I just keep pulling it out, but other people just hate doing that. Java moss and java fern both have the advantage that fish don't like to eat them very much.

<br>

<br>

The cleanup crew: bristlenoses are good, but they can get stuck into the plants. On the other hand, hopefully your plants will be growing at such a rate, that that wouldn't really matter (certainly is the case with me). But you could also use apple snails, they like algae, but leave plants alone and are very effective at finding food scraps. Mine used to beat the fronties to the food every time. Clown loaches are important for snail control and I found that they are ok even with apple snails, because they can really only get the small ones, and there are usually so many that losing a few doesn't matter much. I also found young gibbiceps very effective.

<br>

<br>

If I think of anything else, I'll post it later.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hyperdive</STRONG><BR><BR>Good advice folks, keep it coming.

<br>

<br>

By the way I'm not doing this to avoid water changes, but I need something else to supplement the changes. I'm currently changing at least 400 litres of water per week, so it should be plenty, but a few of the tanks are reasonably heavily stocked and I still cannot keep my nitrates below about 60 - 80 ppm. Luckily my nitrite readings are low.

<br>

<br>

I don't want to change more than the 20 - 30% per week that I am currently doing, so I'm looking at alternatives.

<br>

<br>

I do need to buy another test kit though, as I've read in a couple of places that the Wardley test kit has been known to show levels 10 times that of other brands such as seachem in the same tank.

<br>

<br>

Maybe I'm stressing over nothing?

<br>

<br>

What lighting would you all recommend then? I have a double 4ft flouro reflector which I could use for the tank if a certain flouro tube would be better than the MH light.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Andy,

<br>

<br>

I agree, you can't really stop changing water, because of all the other waste products that build up in the water, but you can definitely reduce the nitrates with plants.

<br>

<br>

As to test kits, that's a difficult one, because they do have a use-by date and you never know just how long they have been sitting on the shelf. If you really want to be sure, I guess you could set up a test series with water with known levels of nitrates and then test them with your test kit. I guess you could get nitrates in some form or another from a hydroponics shop and just calculate how much you are adding to your test water.

<br>

<br>

As for lighting, I use a double lighttube over the length of the tank. We use powerglow (I think), but they are very expensive and I am currently trying to find a cheaper alternative (there is an NEC tube, that is very good I hear - just not commonly available in 3ft, unfortunately, but 4" is available at Bunning's Warehouse).

<br>

<br>

In regards to substrate, I like to use fine sand (the same I use for the fish), but I plant the plants in pots and then secure them from digging fish with pieces of lava rock or wood. Alternatively, you can also use a reasonably deep gravel bed and secure the plants somehow. The drawback is that a deep gravelbed will increase the biological oxygen demand (BOD) in the tank, and if for some reason your airpump fails, you could run into trouble in a heavily stocked tank (been there, done that and lost a lot of fish).

<br>

<br>

Hope this helps a bit.

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>1. Will a 4x14x20 tank filled with plants do much to reduce the nitrate levels of a 2000+ litre system?

<br>

<br>

Answer is, it depends on how much growth the plants you keep have.

<br>

<br>

<br>

2. Will a 250 watt (GE MVR250) metal halide light be powerful enough and provide the right light to make the plants thrive?

<br>

<br>

A 250w metal halide will be enough light for that tank. Light spread may be a bit of a problem, but since its not for display, it should be OK. Expect better growth for plants under the light, as metal halides are more of a focused light compared to fluoros. Metal halide is better than fluoro, different colour temperatures/bulbs are mainly for your own preferences as far as colour rendition goes because for all intents and purposes your plants will not care, as long as they get enough intensity.

<br>

<br>

<br>

3. Would it be worth sitting the tank in front of a window to get the afternoon sun directly on the tank or would this be detrimental to the plants?

<br>

<br>

I have had good success with sunlight..

sometimes

! It may get the tank very hot in which case some species of plants may not like it. However, there really cannot be too much light within reason, ie not burning the tips of the plants. (which is possible when ppl have too much metal halide light etc)

<br>

<br>

<br>

4. What sort of plants would provide the best nitrate reduction (ie broad leafed, lots of small leaves etc)?

<br>

<br>

The fastest growing plants you can find. In general, the stem plants that do not grow extensive root systems seem to grow the fastest. Riccia also grows fast. Examples of possible stem plants are water sprite (Ceratopteris thalicitroides) and hygrophila species. I have had most success for speed of growth with Ceratopteris and ambulia (Limnophila sessiliflora). Wisteria has been mentioned and also grows well, but IME water sprite is similar and faster. Vallis is fast for ppl who don't supplement co2 because it can extract carbon to a certain extent from carbonates in the water, but its very slow compared to the faster growing stem plants.

<br>

<br>

<br>

5. What sort of substrate is best for the plants?

<br>

<br>

There are many good and better substrates for plants. BUT since you want the plants to take most of the nutrients from the water column, with correct species selection you should be able to use a plain fine gravel substrate. Additions of laterite etc are messier and not necessary for good growth out of the commoner stem plants. After all, you want them to take their nutrients out of the water column, don't you?

<br>

<br>

<br>

6. Will nitrates and light alone be enough to feed the plants or will I need to add another form of nutrition?

<br>

<br>

You will need to supplement other forms of nutrition to obtain the best growth. With high light and nitrates, the plants will get limited with some other form of nutrient FAST. Most probably first one to notice is iron, followed by the other trace nutrients, and possibly potassium depending on your water. CO2 supplementation is absolutely vital for your purposes. I am very sorry to sound opinionated, but it is well documented that growth with CO2 is phenomenally higher than without. Addition

of CO2 will not compete with nitrate reduction.

Without a carbon source your plants

will not be able to use nitrates!

Put it simply, each ppm of nitrate in the water will need a corresponding amount of carbon, potassium, phosphorous, iron and other trace elements to be uptook by the plants. If those are unavailable, plant growth will slow or even stop. This is not noticed by people using low light, no co2 setups because it is available in part from fish wastes and food. Use CO2! Many heavily planted tanks with adequate CO2 supplementation require nitrate ADDITION!

<br>

<br>

<br>

7. What sort of clean up crew would do well in the tank? I was thinking bristlenose, but would they eat the leaves? Failing a good colony option, maybe use it as a fry growout tank?

<br>

<br>

Bristlenose catfish will do well and do not harm the plants. Fry growout is also possible as long as its not a species that specifically digs alot or targets leaves to eat. Other algae targeting species include glass shrimp, SAE's, cherry barbs, otocinclus.. etc Apple snails are not as good as bristlenoses and I find that they do eat the plants more. Small bristlenoses are better than larger specimens, so it would be a good tank to grow out bristlenoses.

<br>

<br>

<br>

8. Is it worth putting bunches of plants in pots to keep them closer to the surface, or even using floating weed?

<br>

<br>

In that depth and width of tank, and with that amount of light, it would not be worth it using floating plants. They will block the light from plants on the bottom. To maximise the biomass of the plants, you want stem plants that will grow from all points from bottom to top.

<br>

<br>

NB: Having said that, IF you really did not want to supplement CO2 into the water, plants grown emersed would grow much faster due to the higher CO2 concentration in the water. A shallow tank is more suitable for this purpose, though of course higher tanks don't hurt, and underneath the plants you can still grow out fry i guess. Plants that do well floating include Ceratopteris cornuta (broad leaved water sprite), Riccia fluitans, water lettuce, water hyacinth, and a terrestial creeping plant whose name eludes me. Some pond keepers keep plastic baskets on bricks to hold roots in the water while the leaves stay out. In these cases floating plants with heavier root formations are better than the aforementioned stem plants.

<br>

<br>

CO2 is easy to setup using the yeast and sugar water method. In that volume of water and assuming that you have a fair amount of buffering capacity (kH) you will not need to worry about pH fluctuations. Though you will still need to do water changes, the lower long term nitrate levels in the water is usually considered to be beneficial in terms of growth rate and general health. Also, plants uptake ammonia and nitrite preferentially to nitrate, so if for some reason your biofiltration you have is taxed somehow, the plants will provide a safety buffer.

<br>

<br>

Hope this long post helps Andy.. Good sources of information on this subject is the plant section of www.thekrib.com and you can also post a question to the aquatic plant mailing list. This topic has been covered there quite a bit, so you can also search their archives, though the search thing seems a little buggy. But I think i've summarised the important points there.. Light type not important, intensity important. CO2 important whether you get it from air or supplemented into the water for submersed plants.

<br>

<br>

</STRONG><BR><BR>Sensational. Much appreciated.

<br>

<br>

Can someone throw me a link to building the coke bottle CO2 injector?

<br>

<br>

I'll search around for it myself, but there is usually always a better link somewhere....

<br>

<P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Mtchye,

<br>

my hornwort grows at about 28?C, so I guess that's pretty warm. Interestingly it does really well in my South American tank (soft, acid water) but doesn't like it at all in my African tank, although I used to grow it there too. Hmmm!

<br>

<br>

Andy,

<br>

I don't think you have to wait 12 hours. I tend to connect the generator as soon as it has reached about room temperature (it sits on top of the tank, so there is no danger of it sucking water out of the tank during cooling) and it starts to bubble pretty well soon after, certainly 4 hours later.

<br>

<br>

I use the dry yeast from the supermarket (and being a cheapscate, I buy the cheapest). I use 2/3 of cup of sugar and 1 teaspoon of yeast and fill the 2 l bottle to the point where it narrows into the neck. That lasts about 10 days. I find, if I add less yeast, the CO2 generation is a little slow for my liking. I don't have a dish (like the sera system), my bubble just go to the surface. But the plants grow and despite 2 feeds a day I don't measure any nitrate in the water.

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hyperdive</STRONG><BR><BR>How much does CO2 lower the pH of the water in the tank?

<br>

<br>

I doubt it would make too much difference on my whole system, but I'm still interested.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>Hmm 28c! Thats interesting lol.. and in your acidic tank too.. in alot of books it seems they are supposed to be good for harder and cooler water lol..

<br>

<br>

Andy, CO2 affects the pH depending on how much buffering capacity (ie carbonates or kH) you have in the water. If you search thekrib.com you will find a table showing the relationship between ppm of CO2, kH, and pH.. With this table you can also calculate the ppm of CO2 you have by testing just the pH and kH. This will help you decide how many bottles you need. Ideally it should be around 20ppm.

<br>

<br>

Letting it bubble to the surface is a little inefficient but still gets a bit of CO2 into the water.. making a reactor or something like a plastic 'chilli' takeaway container upside down would be better still... having a spare canister or powerhead would be best..

<br>

<br>

I have a little upturned plastic container diameter around 5cm or so, cut a little nick in it and shove in a suction cap of some sort.. the gas will collect in there and if too much gathers, will simply bubble out the side.

<br>

<br>

Still the most efficient way is with turbulent mixing in a reactor of some sort..

<br>

<br>

I set up a tank for an organisation a while ago, with a single 4 ft Tri phosphor daylight flouro, and a few simple plants, such as val, spawning grass and hygro, and I was astounded at the look. With only a single daylight tube, the tank looks so bright and crystal clear. So I tried this on my 3ft at home, and it just looked yellow. Even with one daylight, and one 10000k tube, the tank still didnt look nice and bright. Does anybody have any ideas on how to get the cheesy crystal clear look that the tank in your local RSL club does?

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: crashfragment</STRONG><BR><BR>do you have any driftwood in the tank?

<br>

the tds can also make water look yellow.

<br>

*total dissolved solids-fancy way of saying do water changes more often

<br>

-shaun

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: The Cichlid Man</STRONG><BR><BR>They may be using Seachem Purigen in the filters, this product will polish the water and make it sparkle. Good for when driftwood sends the water a tangant colour.

<br>

<br>

Regards,

<br>

Ben

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>There is some wood in the tank that has plants attached to it, it is long past the stage of dissolving any tanins into the water, but it could be affecting the water nonetheless I guess, thats a good point.

<br>

<br>

They could be using some kind of purifier, but the tank that I have must set up dosent have anything like that in it, and it has the same look about it. But that tank dosent have any wood in it, which does make sense really. I think I will just have to give up the idea of a sparkling tank in this case, as the water looks very clean, just dosent have that crystal sparkle about it like the one that I sold and just set up, that looks so good I want the bloody thing back now lol.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Willy wombat</STRONG><BR><BR>Two things that may help.

<br>

<br>

Make sure your glass if clean, both on the inside and the outside. You could have the most clear water in the world, but if you have dirty glass, it will look dirty.

<br>

<br>

Second, you may like to add activated carbon, close to the outlet of your filter. This acts as a water polisher, and is most effective at the end of the filtering process, after all the other stages. I have had some very good results using activated carbon.

<br>

<br>

Just my 2 cents

<br>

<br>

Cheers

<br>

The plants in the tank are Java Fern and Anubias Nana.

<br>

<br>

Cheers

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: starreys</STRONG><BR><BR>well if you cant move your tank away from direct sunlight , how about some bristlenose or siamese algae eaters they will help with your algae problem, but best of all it would be better to have your tank away from direct sunlight.

<br>

<br>

Sarah

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: o0KatStar0o</STRONG><BR><BR>I had the same problem, in the afternoon a little sun would hit the tank if the blind wasn't shut. I brought 2 otto's and haven't seen any algae since.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I have a tank behind some matchstick blinds on my verandah that recieves filtered light (still very bright) for the best part of the morning. I just give the plants a bit of a swish over and syphon off the rubbish.

<br>

<br>

I have a salmon cat in the tank, but what other sort of catfish would be best to munch on the algae? I dont know a lot about catfish.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Add some algae eaters. Otos are good on plants (Otocinclus spp.) and SAE's are good. Make sure you get real SAE's and not the false type.

<br>

<br>

HTH -

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Please pardon my ignorance, but what are SAE's? I wouldnt know a real one, or a false one if you slapped me in the face with it (insert monty python fish slapping dance here)

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>SAE = siamese algae eaters

<br>

<br>

Also i found this...

<br>

Siamese algae eater = real Siamese algae eater = SAE = Crossocheilus siamensis

<br>

<br>

False Siamese algae eater = Siamese algae eater = Thai flying fox = Siamese flying fox = colorful flying fox = false SAE = Epalzeorhynchos sp. or Garra taeniata (they do not know)

<br>

<br>

Flying fox = trunk barb = Epalzeorhychos kalopterus

<br>

<br>

Chinese algae eater = algae eater = Chinese catfish (not a catfish) = Indian algae eater = CAE = Gyrinocheilus aymonieri

<br>

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks mate, appreaciate the info

I have never been one to know a lot of scientific names, but over the last few months, I have come to realise how usefull and helpfull they are!

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Are you fertilising your tank in any way? If not you might want to consider adding some plant supplements, and maybe even some C02. One of my tanks is exposed to sunlight to several hours a day, and has lights on from 7 am to midnight. I don't have any algae growing in that tank.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I think I might give that a go, I thought that would make the algae problem worse, but from what people are telling me, it will have the opposite effect.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>You would only make the algae problem worse if you added nitrates and phosphates to your water. So be sure to get a plant supplement from your LFS rather than your nursery, because those fertilisers are very high in nitrate and phosphates and will cause algal blooms.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for the tip, do you recommend any particular product? Any hints would be appreaciated, as I dont know anything about fertilising aquarium plants..

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>I use Seachem Flourish and Flourish Iron (hidiously expensive, but good and handy), but there are recipes for PMDD (poor man's Dupla drops) on the internet, if you have the time and inclination to tinker around with your own mix.

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: zerospel1</STRONG><BR><BR>Ive never tried myself but other than java ferns and anubias you can also try African bolbitis fern

<br>

<br>

They look nice and attaches to wood

<br>

<br>

Im still looking for these myself but it seems that only online stores has them.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: kevkoi</STRONG><BR><BR>Javafern and Anubias seem like the only plants that will take the high pH. Bolbitus seem to prefer a more neutral/acidic pH.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>hi David,

<br>

I have java fern and an assortment of anubias growing on wood in rift lake conditions and some amazon swords in the same water conditions but in the substrate.

<br>

Along the way the fish have snacked on valisneria, hygrophilia, chain swords and several of the amazon varieties.

<br>

What I have left is obviously unpalatable and relatively tolerant of the water conditions in the sense that it at least stays alive and tries to grow.

<br>

Every now and then I will move some of it to my peppermint bristlenose tank with softer water conditions and a lower Ph where it grows noticeably faster though.

<br>

<br>

I like to keep plants in the tanks partly as an aesthetic choice and partly as a nitrate soak but had planned on reducing the quantity quite a bit, particularly of java fern so .... if you want bulk quantities we can haggle when you pick up the multis.

<br>

<br>

Laurie

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Depends on the africans - if we are talking Julidochromis and Neolamprologus sp. then Anubias sp. and java fern are both good choices.

<br>

<br>

If we are talking Pseudotrophish cichlids - then you can forget about it. They are plant eating machines

.

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: YeW2001</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi -

<br>

It would probably depend on what plants you wish to grow. I'm sure Anubias/Java moss & ferns would grow but for high light plants you might need to consider a metal hallide lamp.

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks, I do have metal halide on the tank at the moment, but I was planning on moving it to another marine tank. Does algae generally become a problem when using MH on fresh water tanks?

<br>

One idea I had, was to terrace the tank, put some higher light plants midway up the tank, and have lower light species, such as anubias etc at the bottom.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mtchye</STRONG><BR><BR>That sounds like a good idea. We have just setup a similar tank, but its only 24" high. I think the consensus is that metal halides are much more effective penetration wise, and also more cost effective once you start talking about that number of normal fluoros. EG you can get commercial MH fixtures from lamp specialists for around the $200 mark, including a daylight tube. Funny thing is wattage is not a huge factor in price at those places.

<br>

One problem i've encountered is that of light distribution. The metal halide needs to be mounted a fair distance above the tank if you only have one over a 4ft distance like mine. Ideally i think you would probably want 1MH/3ft of tank..

<br>

However, I'm sure the slow growers will do fine in a tank like that. Even some of the less demanding fast growers such as water sprite and Hygrophila polysperma 'rosanervis' (two of our favourite less demanding plants) will do OK, just dont let the plant grow till the tops shade the bottoms..

<br>

HTH

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks again, I already have a 150w MH mounted about 5 inches from the water surface, but as I said, I am moving it to another marine tank. I can pick up 10000k 150w DE MH fittings and globes for about $160 ish, but I didnt want to spend too much money on the lighting, I already have an abundance of 4 ft tubes, and for $15 per batten, half a dozen would only set me back $90.

<br>

I will see how I go once I get started.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: jamesmcsyd</STRONG><BR><BR>I have a 24inch high tank with 2 fluro's. Never had any problem in growing swords, anubias, aponogetons or crypts

<br>

James

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks James, sounds good to me, I will have at least 5 flouros, probably a lot more if I work out how many double battens I can fit in the tank.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Davo67</STRONG><BR><BR>Gday,

<br>

I have 4 x 40w NEC Tri Phosfor tubes on my tank and the plants are really going well. They say that you need 2-4 watts per gallon. My tank is a bit under that and I am going to install another tube or maybe two.

<br>

BTW, where did you get the MH fixtures for that price? How did you mount them above the tank?

<br>

Thanks,

<br>

Dave.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>I got the MH from a friend that runs an electrical supply business, through work, but if you can get trade prices from a local lighting shop, then you should get them for about $180.

<br>

specifically the plant experts........haha

<br>

Anyway, I was wondering if you can take cutting from Annubis plants........ not sure of the exact variety maybe Annubis nana...... grown on drift wood or rocks etc........ I know someone with a lovely plant about fifty cms large and its sitting in a bird pond doing nothing..... they wont get rid of it but maybe if i can take a cutting and grow it they might let me.......haha

<br>

So please if anyone has any experience with this could you please let me know........

<br>

Thanks everyone,

<br>

Nick....

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Nick, if you have the time, you can just place another piece of driftwood touching the roots of the anubias on the other piece of wood, and in a short period of time, the roots will grow over to the new piece, sprout a leaf or 2, and then just carefully seperate the 2 pieces of wood, cutting the roots that join the pieces.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>You can certainly take cuttings, no problem at all. Remember these plants are waterplants and take up nutrients through all parts of the plants, not just the roots (unlike their terrestrial cousins). The roots are just or at least mainly for anchoring purposes. I have just split my Anubias nana into three. All look happy and healthy and are growing.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>I always let my cuttings have 10 or so leaves but i have read that >5 is fine.

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: njmpm</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi people,

<br>

Thanks for the replies...... all i have to do now is convince then to give me a cutting....... lol

<br>

very much appreciated guys/girls.....

<br>

thanks

<br>

Nick

<br>

<br>

I have been reading a bit and a few sites seem to suggest that you turn off c02 at night and that you cant have a air stone running during the day or it will get rid of the c02.

<br>

Is this correct, should i turn co2 off at night and not run a air stone during the day?

<br>

Thanks Ryan

<br>

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: hungsta</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi my understanding is that the airstone should not be turned on because it creates surface turbulence which is where co2 and o2 is exchanged........so best to minimise surface disturbance.....

<br>

Regarding the other issue, you should not turn off co2 at night... because there is no harm in leaving it on (your fish will not suffocate), if you do turn it off the ph flutuations is more likely to harm your fish...

<br>

However since plants take in o2 at night you can add in some current.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: masterry</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks Hungsta

<br>

Does anyone else have an opinion to this or disagree with what hungsta said?

<br>

Ryan

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: E4G13M4N</STRONG><BR><BR>My understanding is that the plant dont absorb the Co2 at night, so basically its a waste of Co2 IMO unless your using the home brew

<br>

When using the Carbo Plus type of unit they recommend only to use with a timer in conjunction with your lights, so Co2 gas type would be the same..

<br>

^Mark^

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: MagicaDiSpell</STRONG><BR><BR>Plants are net producers of oxygen only during exposure to light and net producers of CO2 at night. So, yes from that point of view it would be a "waste" of CO2, if you kept it bubbling at night.

<br>

However... (isn't there always one?) the fluctuations in pH could be sufficient to stress your fish, damage your bacterial fauna in the filter and also stress the plants.

<br>

Therefore, I would recommend you kept the CO2 bubbling at night also. Similarly you should also keep the airstones either running all the time or not all, fluctuations in dissolved gases will stress the fish. This is one reason for not extremely super-oxygenating your water, because if you have a power/pump failure, the fish are so used to a high oxygen level in the water, that they wont be able to cope with the lower levels. On the other hand fish that have been kept at moderate oxygen levels will be albe to cope better.

<br>

Sorry, I digress, but the message I guess is: keep your system as stable as possible.

<P><STRONG>Author: Brett4Perth</STRONG><BR><BR>During the day plants convert CO2 to O2 with the aid of light.

<br>

During the night plants use O2 and make CO2.

<br>

So I guess it is not really "stable", even if the only change you make is to turn the light on and off.

<br>

In practice I don't think it makes all that much difference. My heavily planted tanks have CO2 running all the time and the fish don't seem to suffer, but they are relatively lightly stocked. Theoretically, if you have a heavily planted tank and high fish load, then the fish could run out of O2 at night. This is because the plants are using some of the O2, not due to the CO2 content of the water. Turning off the CO2 doesn't help this, aeriating the water at night does. Never seen it happen!!

<br>

Brett

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: PHL0703</STRONG><BR><BR>I think this has been hotly debated for some time, but the final consensus was the the pH swing was more harmful than anything else. Anyway, top get some results...

<br>

Some aquarist in the US measured the O2 saturation levels (which is what is important to the fish, not so much the CO2 level unless it's very high), and it was 108% daytime, and 96% just before the lights came on in the morning. So there is no problems for fish. pH swing was from 6.8 to 6.6, so no problems either. Can't remember the CO2 level, but it wasn't significant, as some will be lost ayway through the surface.

<br>

When CO2 was turned off, the O2 levels were not significantly different, but now the pH was 6.8 to 6.7 to 7.2 in the first half hour of the light coming on, before falling back to 6.8; the pH swing was caused by the plants using up the little available CO2 before the reactor could dissolve more CO2, and although it doesn't cause fish death, it might.

<br>

So it's probably better to leave the CO2 on all the time, keep it in the 20-30ppm range daytime, and leave it. At least that's what I've been doing.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Firstly, CO2 and O2 levels dissolved in water are independant. That is, if you have high CO2 levels the dissolved oxygen will not be affected and vice versa. CO2 is more affected than oxygen by surface turbulence (presumably due to being a larger molecule).

<br>

CO2 stays on at night - Reason being for pH fluctuations. Basically the water will reach a stage where it's not likely to keep any more co2 in the system anyway due to the exchange rate between the surface and the environment surrounding the tank - it will reach an equilibrium. Unless your co2 system makes like a fire extinguisher in the tank and your carbonate hardness is scarily low, you will *not* see pH fall to such a level as your fish will *ever* be harmed if they are suitable for planted tanks. The process of co2 interchange between the water and the air is somewhat between diffusion and advection... the diffusive component is governed by ficks equation which states that the rate of exchange is proportional to the concentration difference between the two media - i.e. when the concentration difference between water and air is at such a rate that the rate of interchange is the same as the rate that you're pumping in CO2. This is also governed by the diffusivity of co2 in air and water and gets compliated but just trust me the fish will be ok under 'normal' co2 induction rates

<br>

If CO2 is turned off at night, all that will be done is that co2 will be lost from the system and none coming in. This creates net imbalance in the morning when lights come back on and co2 comes back on - very low co2 present not good for your plants, and means a large pH fluctuation has occured (a rise in pH overnight) between when the lights were turned off at night and when the lights came back on. True, plants respire in dark periods, but the rate you will lose co2 from the surface is far greater than the rate of co2 production in the plants through respiration.

<br>

In short, leave the CO2 on over night. No the plants aren't using it, but it keeps a better system equilibrium for the reasons above (plus more complicated ones I wont go into).

<br>

Regarding airstones - yes leave the airstones off. In general, you dont tend to see airstones in densely planted tanks at all - either night or day - due to co2 loss. So I would say if you *HAVE* to use an airstone use it at night, otherwise dont bother - the plants should produce enough oxygen and there should be enough surface area available on your tank to sustain what fish you have in there. Additionally, you dont tend to see many fish in a densely planted tank for this reason - the focus is then on the plants not so much the fish. Less fish = less need to worry too much about dissolved oxygen and airstones etc.

<br>

Hope this helps,

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>I would agree with Adam.

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If the tank isn't densely planted, having the co2 on at night will not be a problem. Unless it is heavily planted and heavily stocked with fish, then an airstone (on a timer) at night will help.