Water Chemistry Latest Topics

Are additives really necessary?

Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:06:01 +0000

Are additives really necessary ?

Author: BlakeyBoyR

Seeing as Im new (as in Ive had my cichlids less than a week), I was wondering if putting in a malawai mixture into my water is really necessary ? Does it benefit the fish much ? Why do people use it.

Replies »

Author: gianniz

nope its not. putting those will give the best condition for your fish ( for breeding and stuff ) but your fish wont die

and it can still breed. I never use it (i just use coral sand for gravel subsitute) and never have had any problem.. (but then again I am not a serious breeder and my fish are not hard to breed

hehehe Oh one thing when I used to have normal gravel and my PH was around 7.. both my yellows/and blue bred without any complication. and the babies are doing fine they are now like 5cm

Author: SamJW

Hi Blakey Boy,

What we are all ultimately trying to achieve is a perfect replication of the fishes natural habitat.

Supposedly by adding buffers, salts, etc. then we are making them feel more comfortable.

Personally I use Seachem Rift Lake salts, Buffers & Prime. This is costly however I have found my fish are healthy happy and breeding

You will get mixed reactions from many people on this board. Some will say don't add anyting, others will say make your own mixes as it's cheaper (see the DIY section), others will insist that they are neccessary.

I personally believe that well filtered, clean water is absolutely neccessary, and will continue to use buffers, etc. until something better comes along.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Sam.

Author: BlakeyBoyR

Oh ok, well I will check out the DIY stuff and if its easy to do and the chems are easily found I might make some then

I mean, its just a display tank but I want my fish to be happy (that sounds weird)

Author: 00 Dino 00

the only product I use is Seachem tang buffer, I also do not use any water purifier in my tanks, i use water straight from the tap, I dont recomend this for everyone, I have analysed the tap water and found it of very good quality in 'my' region, this could vary a great deal depending on the state's water treatment process.

I use the buffer as it adds the required base metals to the water, fish however are very adaptable and do not require all this fuss if you dont want to do it

Author: Perspicax

I agree with the others that if you want to provide the best condition to your cichlids, then you should add buffers, lake salts, etc. On the other hand this is very costly. Especially, if you have a lot of tanks.

According to my experience with malawi cichlids you do not need any additives at all.

I've been breeding malawi cichlids for 8 months seriously and they were breeding without any problems.

I have crushed coral substrate that keeps the ph up, have good filtration and do regular water changes, so I keep my water clean and the fishes are breeding.

Once, I tried to use additives and I did not experience any changes whatsover.

I also recommend to keep good filtration and clean water. (Just a contradiction I knew some people who had pretty dirty water, no additives and their fishes were breeding, I wouldn't recommend that though).

Anyway, you have to experiment and see what is best for your fishes and your budget.

Roland

Author: yevrah

What it really depends on is what condition you water comes out from the tap. In sydney were pretty lucky with a ph of 7.2 and just enough hardness to keep most cichlids happy.

If your tap water is comming out below ph7 then i would say cichlid salt adiditives are definately needed.

Best, Harvey.

Author: OLD

i dont think its absolutely neccessary but if you want recreate the natural environment accurately then use it but it can be very expensive if your maintaning multiple or large tanks because you need quite a lot

Cichlid Buffers

Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:25:43 +0000

Hey all,

I have a mix of Malawi and Tang cichlids, and after reading a few posts on here and other forums I am a bit concerned that as I am not using any type of Buffer (apart from coral/marble chip substrate) that my fish may be missing out.

Do I need buffers? Does every body use them?

Will it improve the water quality and thus kick on breeding??

Cheers

Has it cycled?

Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:36:09 +0000

OK i'm a bit confused. I have setup a small 2ft aquarium. It has 1 corner filter filled with crushed marble and some filter wool and it has a sponge filter. Both are ran off independent airpumps so there is a fair bit of turn over. I had squeesed out some sponges from a power filter running in another tank and i have 2 goldies in the tank to help the process. I have been feeding the goldies 3 times a day a fair bit. The tank has been running for a week and a half and still no ammonia spike. Could this sponge squeese have been sufficient to handle the bio load and thats why it hasn't cycled?

Anthony

How Much Tang Buffer Does it Take?

Tue, 30 May 2006 04:51:37 +0000

Hi guys n' gals,

I have my tank running and cycling, as some of you will likely know. I am trying to get my water parameters up to scratch at the moment and have been using the Tanganyika buffers to raise the KH to 15 degrees to match the breeders water.

I was wondering how much Seachem Tangangika Buffer people have had to use to get the KH up to 15 degrees, it comes of the tap at 3 degree here and is taking a fair amount of the buffer to raise it. People around the Blacktown area would be especially helpful.

The tank is 340L, I've been adding 4 teaspoons per day for about 5 days and it's only just hitting 13 degrees. pH went right up after day 2 and has been stable since. Substrate is crushed marble, but as I understand it this won't have any impact until the pH drops down below 8, current (from memory) pH is between 8.4-8.8.

The process for adding and testing has generally been add the buffer at night and then test the following night (approx 24hrs, sometimes less, sometimes more...). I then have been adding more buffer after completing the tests to continue to raise the KH. Is has been increasing but much slower then expected, I have been dosing on the low side of the directions though. Does this take a longer than 24 hour period to take full effect?

I'm not overly concerned about the rate of increase, I expect it should be pretty spot on tonight or tomorrow night, but I expected it to move a little faster and use less. What will the boss think when she see all the empty Tang buffer jars lying around

Cheers

Jon

Hydrochloric acid (HCl) to lower pH

Tue, 12 Apr 2005 03:20:38 +0000

Hydrochloric acid (HCl) to lower pH

Author: THERMOFISH

DO you think it would be ok to use HCl to lower the pH of a tank that has no fish in it yet. 'pH down' is just so damn exspensive for just a little sodium phosphate and i can get HCl free from work.

I dont see why diluted HCl wouldnt be ok.

Has anyone had any experience with using HCl ?

otherwise does anyone supply Sodium phosphate at an intelligent price ?

cheers,

thomas.

Replies »

Author: Willy wombat

I would be very careful using HCl in your tank, even without fish. I have known people who have tried using it in aquaculture situations and they lost fish.

Such a strong acid should never be used in a situation where fish are already in the tank, as it has the potential to move the PH a long way and will shock the poor buggers. But as there are no fish in the tank, you may get away with using a VERY dilute solution. Also please remember that you are introducing Cl- ions into the tank with you H+ ions. Shouldnt be a problem for african cichlids.

Cheers

Author: Craig Douglas

If HCl is pure or close it has to be the right thing to use to lower Ph. I agree the dilution must be correct. I believe the problem with using this stuff is the impurities the commercially available stuff has in it. Phosphoric acid is probably a much safer choice.

Craig.

Author: approximate

Thermofish, I think that's a great idea. Please try using HCL on your tank and let us know how you went.

Author: MagicaDiSpell

Hmmm, my chemistry might be a bit rusty, but.... HCl is a very corrosive inorganic acid and as such probably not really suited for aquarium applications. Even if you don't have fish in the tank yet, you will probably harm the bacteria in your filter.

I am assuming that you want to lower the pH because either your tap water is more or less hard and alkaline. Instead of adding the - hidiously expensive - pH down, I would suggest adding peatmoss or Sera Peat Granules to your tank. I have done that and it has softened my water as well as reduced the pH. I am not sure how much the peat granules cost these days, but they last a while and are much saver than HCl.

In the end, we will conserve only what we love, We will love only what we understand, And we will understand only what we are taught. (Baba Dioum, African Biologist)

THERMOFISH

Author: THERMOFISH

I work in a pathology lab so the HCl we use is very dilute, still i decided not to use it because of the chloride ions i'd be adding, i finally found a little bit of tri-sodium phosphate up the back of a cupboard which did the trick.

MagicaDispell, thanks for the tip, it's bit funny, my tap water is spot on pH 7. But when i set up my new tank the pH was over 8, i think it might have been the gravel or something.

My filter (2217) is second hand, it has what looks like a bag crushed coral in it, that will raise pH?, if i cant find peat what should i replace it with ?

I have americans by the way.

Author: c2105208

The thing to be careful with adding phosphate-related products is algal blooms.... You can get major problems within a matter of a few days even with low light levels.

But then again, there's disadvantages and advantages to most products (particularly inexpensive methods).

HCl not recommended due to Cl- ions. We're trying to get rid of them in the initial water aging processes (though in different forms yes), not add more.

Cheers,

Adam

Author: Willy wombat

c2105...

Im not quite sure about the comment you just made about the Cl- (chloride) ions.

The major problem that i saw with the Cl- ions was not that they contained chlorine like in tap water (yes harmful to fishes, but present in the form of HOCl called hypochlorous acid, much different to Cl-)

Rather, i was more concerned with the addition of a large amount of Cl- ions being potentially problematic due to an effect on the osmoregulation of the fish.

(Osmoregulation is how fish balance the level of "salts" in their blood.) You see salts (or ions) can travel across the thin skin barrier between the gills of a fish and the water on the outside quite readily.

Think of when you add table salt to water (NaCl is Sodium and Chloride ions), which becomes sodium ions (Na+) and Chloride ions (Cl-) when it dissolves into the water. Too many chloride ions in the water for some fish species will lead to problems. Not being an expert on the American cichlids i am not sure how they would handle it? What species are you planing on keeping Thermo?

Hope that made sense, it is so hard to explain about chemistry and not put people to sleep. Hope you would all agree that it is important to understand the basics when keeping an aquarium though!

Cheers

Author: c2105208

WW think that whole biological aspect of osmo-regulators vs osmo-conformers is a bit beyond the scope of most people here. Whislt I study it in depth at uni, as well as chemistry particularly referring to aquatic environments (see my profile if you wish) but it's complex (as you would seem to know).

I'm aware that Cl comes in many forms.

Quote:(though in different forms yes)

Also beyond the scope of most people here chemistry-wise.

My basic message that I attempted to get across was more to do with adding a harsh pure chemical. And by the way, HCl added direct to aquariums does cause problems with fish. I have numerous reports lying around somewhere in the deep dark depths of my filing cabinets which testify to all of that, and that overdoses of Cl- ions, whether in acidic HCl- form or the hypochlorous - chlorine or chloramine either one, can all be detrimental. Cl is not something you want to mess with in an aquarium in general - I'd hope with your apparent background that you'd agree and see that...

Cheers

Adam

Author: Willy wombat

C21...

Just making a clarification. Certainly not insulting your inteligence!

I studied aquatic science and aquaculture (and alcoholture) at uni, so sometimes i go into a little bit too much detail about various things. I think that some people can generally follow what im talking about, but the masses seem to stare back blankly.... (shame) (Also, not a criticism of the masses)

Cheers WW

PS: Osmoregulator - animal that controls the level of salt in its system (such as fish) using its kidneys and other organs

Osmoconformer - animal that cannot control the level of salt in its internal fluids (such as an oyster), and will have what ever osmolality that the outside environment has.

Author: THERMOFISH

Exactly why a dropped the HCl idea.

I studied Biomedical science at uni so im with ya.

it was worth discussing though.

Author: MagicaDiSpell

Thermofish,

The shellgrit will definitely raise the pH, it acts as a buffer and buffers the water at about 7.6. For aquaria with fish that will tolerate a pH of 7.6 and moderate hardness, I would always recommend including a bag of shellgrit in the filter, because it prevents pH crashes and also provides a source of carbon necessary for the growth of bacteria.

Hmmm, if you can't find the sera granules, let me think. I have heard of people using the gardening-type peat for fishtanks. I would expect that to be a bit more messy than the granules, but it should work, as long as you keep it in a fine mesh, like a nylon sock or something.

If you do decide to go with gardening peat, make sure you get the one that is based on sphagnum moss (in biological terms really the only peat moss, but the gardening industry decided to call something else peat as well, and it is cr....., even for gardening I find). And you will probably have to buy a small bale of it.

Good luck, keep us up to date. And can I say, I have really enjoyed this biochemical excursion. Adam, yes it may be beyond many on this board, but there are lots of us that can follow and love it too.

In the end, we will conserve only what we love, We will love only what we understand, And we will understand only what we are taught. (Baba Dioum, African Biologist)

THERMOFISH

Author: THERMOFISH

Cheers MagicaDispell,

i think i might give the c... sphagnum moss a miss and have a good look around for the sera granules, im sure they cant be that hard to find .

Thank again for all the help.

Let you know how it all goes.

Author: YeW2001

Hi -

As others have said - don't.

On the last point... be aware that sphagnum moss and peat moss are different things.

Sphagnum is generally living (or very recently so) moss - while peat moss is broken down organic matter (including Sphagnum and other mosses, sedges etc).

-- YeW

Author: Craig Douglas

Is the Cl- ion from NaCl different either chemically or electrically for the Cl- ion from HCl ? If not and used correctly I still cannot see why HCl should not be a suitable acid for aquarium use assuming chemical purity ?

Craig.

Author: c2105208

No worries WW....

Just to add to your little definition, as a generalisation most bony fish in fresh and salt water are osmoregulators, sharks tend to be osmoconformers. And, for anyone that's interested - little brine shrimp are osmoregulators whilst other shrimp, crabs etc tend to be osmoconformers. Hence why brine shrimp can live in the salt lakes where the salinity is up to 2-3x the salinity of sea water, and other species of shrimps cannot. Brackish water fish have mechanisms whereby they modify their internal structures as well as gill structures in order to adapt to the salt concentrations. It is believed at this time that most species switch between osmoconforming and osmoregulating depending on the salt ion concentration (there is a species of shark currently under research for doing exactly this at the moment - switching from completely marine to completely freshwater estuarine habitats - sorry the species name escapes me a the moment...). For others out there interested

Funny enough, a few weeks back some rather (un?)lucky people in the chat room got a lovely big talk on the osmoconformer/regulator thing whilst I was in there. Funny it comes up all of a sudden so soon when we'd almost not heard it on here before

Craig: The short answer to the question you ask is that yes they're essentially the same ion - the electron configurations are essentially the same. However there is a bigger biological picture here. For illustrative purposes - one doesn't actually add NaCl to the aquarium (except for SW tanks) would they? Not under normal circumstances. Therefore consider the effect of adding HCl? Sure, small concentrations perhaps but read on for a little example... As we know (and if we didn't, then we now do), pH is measured on a log scale. Assuming that the individual is adding HCl because it's a more concentrated direct way of lowering pH, and perhaps want to lower it a significant amount. For example say they need to lower the pH from say, 8.0 to 7.0. This represents a tenfold increase in hydrogen ion concentration, as well as (since in HCl there's a 1:1 ratio H+:Cl-) a tenfold increase in Cl- ion concentration (clearly this depends on how much Cl- there was in the start though, though fresh water has minute amounts of Cl- ions normally). Looking (almost too) simply on the matter, and looking at only the Cl- ion increase, it's like having ten times the salinity in a salt tank to get that same amount of Cl- ions. From where I stand, that in itself has to be a bit concerning when you consider the magnitude of the concentration increases, and hence why WW and I have had this little stint on osmoregulating and osmoconforming - and as WW pointed out, that the fish would have to cope with the increased ion concentrations. Additionally, other salt ion concentrations and biological factors pull the pH swing of H+/OH- ions out of balance (in short, increase the pH over time perhaps), therefore reducing effectively the H+ concentration. Granted most of the time the pH only lowers further due to the Urea produced in the fish, along with other factors, but sometimes the pH can rise... So if someone went to 'balance' the pH again with HCl, they'd be adding more Cl- ions on top of what's already there anyway in the process. I've almost over simplified the chemistry behind this, a tank is not a test tube and has a much wider mix of salts and other compounds which are interacting and creating a much more complicated model

but you get my drift anyway....

Cheers,

Adam

Author: Mr M00se

Thanks Adam. As I as sure you know we all add CaCl or KCl to up Gh therefore increasing Cl- ions. I agree it would be better to add nothing but at times an adjustment in Ph is neccessary. I just thought that HCl in appropriate dilutions would be suitable, more so than say Sodium biphosphate which adds two undesirable ions?

Craig.

Author: c2105208

Yep you're right, we do add CaCl and other Chloride compounds - however gH is not a log scale, it depends on the total concentrations. This represents a significant difference in Cl- concentrations when you're talking significant changes in pH. We don't add CaCl or other chloride compounds on that inverse log scale!

I'm not sure what you meant completely by 'appropriate dilutions'. See, the dilutions of HCl are irrelevant really, it's the total amount of ions that are added to the water which cause the pH drop. If you have 1M solution (very dilute HCl) you will need 10x more of it to create the same pH change as 10M HCl solution (concentrated).

Sodium Biphosphate is a fairly tricky compound. Typically, the salt for Sodium phosphate should be Na3PO4, meaning 3:1. Sodium biphosphate 1:2 ratio does not appear in SI data books, leading me to believe that it's the same situation as bicarbonate soda (Calcium carbonate, CaCO3, sometimes called Calcium bicarbonate). Doesn't actually have two CO3 ions but for some reason has been called bicarbonate. I may be incorrect on this, however if I'm right this would mean that it's still a 3:1 ratio. Personally I wouldn't like either Cl- or PO4 ions in my tanks. However, I personally would consider using HCl only on a planted tank with almost no fish due to PO4 ions being so incredibly irritating for algae. As you said KCl etc are added to tanks. KCl is used in planted tanks particularly for raising K+ levels - with regular water changes, Cl ions are kept relatively low. Again though there is that problem with the log scale and the sheer amount of Cl- being added with HCl compared to KCl etc.

Other possible acids to use may be phosphoric acid (H3PO4) which is a triprotic acid - releasing 3 protons in solution and one PO4 ion. The other possible acid to use could be sulfuric acid H2SO4 which is a diprotic acid. Personally I wouldn't use either of these, I'd just buy an RO system or similar - this would take the water at least down to around 7.0 and then a smaller amount of compounds would be needed. However - generally I think it is much safer to raise pH by adding CaOH or similar than it is to lower pH since most of the pH lowering chemicals contain detrimental ions whilst the pH raising ones do not.

In the end I believe it would come down to the individual utilizing what they have available - I am fortunate (in a way) to be on tank water so my water is very soft and around neutral pH - hence I have mostly americans, but do have some africans using suitable buffers. If I lived on town water with a higher gH and pH then I'd probably choose africans - and avoid (south) americans as this would represent more problems lowering pH. If the individual wants to keep fish that do not necessarily correspond to the resources available then that's their choice, but imo they should be aware that it may end up being more costly and that shortcuts such as adding these acids should be avoided for their detrimental side-effects.

Cheers,

Adam

Author: 23Skidoo

Well everyones covered it here, so i'd only like to add that a few people mentioned that this thread might get a bit beyond the scope of most users, i think it's excellent that the people with the knowledge are taking the time to post it!

Personnally i'll post anything if i'm sure i'm right. It doesn't matter to me if no-on else can understand it, thats why you search the web and figure out what it means!

I'm a nerd from Newie too, and it's better to share the knowledge than keep it to yourself.

Author: Auscanuckafishy

G'day,

I've actually wondered what the result of adding all this -Cl will be long term. I read an interesting article on marine tanks discussing the addition of NaHCO3 and CaCl2 to the tanks for the pH. The end result was an increase in salinity levels and a decrease in all other dissolved salts. Essentially all the elements were being replaced by a lot of Sodium and Chloride. The only way to counter it was to find other sources for the missing elements.... something like that anyway.

Now in my tanks I add Calcium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, as well as a bit of Sodium Chloride, granted not in huge numbers, but I wonder what the effect is over time. Then again they've (the fish) been doing their thing for ages so I'm not too worried.

Just a little thing to point out:

Bicarbonate soda, is Sodium (soda) Bicarbonate (NaHCO3). The bicarbonate is -HCO3.

Calcium Bicarbonate would look something like Ca(HCO3)2 I suppose. CaCO3 is Calcium Carbonate which shellfish and corals (and many other critters) use to make their solid structures, in other words, that's what crushed coral is mainly.

I'm thinking that's what you meant to say anyway Adam, so not a correction, just making sure people don't get confused

Mark

Nowra, NSW | ICQ#6497947

Author: c2105208

Ah, too much on my mind. Sorry, yes... that is what I meant to put :S

Thanks Mark for clearing that up.

Adam

Keeping pH Level

Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:57:46 +0000

Keeping pH level

Author: pmc

Have trouble keeping a steady pH level in my tank.

Any suggestions ??

Thanks in advance.

PMC

Replies »

Author: Lucifer

ME too

cant keep pH at 6 for my discus

keeps going back to pH 7

help would be nice

Author: meesterclarence

Greetings. There are many types of ph buffers on the market that will safely lower/raise ph levels. Water changes also affect them, and certain substrates greatly aid in maintaining higher ph levels for Malawi, and Tang. Africans. Good luck, and take care.

Author: Cichlids au

Hi pmc

What pH are you trying to achieve?

Hi Lucifer

For your discus I would suggest that you try peat, that should stop it from bouncing back to neutral

Author: Lucifer

thanks ill try that out tomorrow

how bout the hardness?

is there any way to keep it soft?

Author: danceswithdingoes

Use quality peat in the filter (put it in a filter bag and rinse it thoroughly first) I used to 'brew' peat through an old coffee filter to make 'blackwater' extract.

Author: flashgordonv

I'm struggling with this too. My setup is about 6 weeks old. GH is 18 degrees, KH is 17degrees. The PH slowly falls over a week from 9.2 to 8.2. Tap water comes out at 8.5 but with a KH of 2 and a GH of 6

Author: Auscanuckafishy

If your pH is dropping by that much in a week it sounds as if there is insufficient carbonate hardness, which maintains a buffer, which in turn will keep your pH stable. Have you tested your kH after the drop? Try that and see if there's any difference.

If there is a change, that could be your prob, if not, then perhaps you're using the wrong mix of salts to maintain such a high pH. A mix of bicarb on it's own will skyrocket to a high pH, but will take only a matter of hours to stabilise below 8 again.

One other question.... a pH of 8.2 is sufficient to maintain both malawi's and tangs, do you think you really need it at 9.2? My tangs live and breed at around 8 sometimes even marginally below this. I realise that it's natural for them (those in the lake that is) but it is a lot harder to maintain then a lower pH.

One other thing, perhaps test for nitrates, they will bring your pH down once the buffer is overcome.

Mark

Author: Willy wombat

I have always found that adding shell grit, or crushed oyster shells to your filter, or tank bottom sustrate will help to balance out your pH. They act as a pH buffer by eating up any H+ ions or OH- ions, and stop the pH from swinging around too much.

Do you understand what i am talking about when i am saying OH- and H+ ions. Let me know if you dont and i can write a bit more about this for you.

Ah, memories of first year Chemistry... *cringe*

Cheers

Willy

Author: pmc

Cichlid_au,

I am trying to maintain a pH 8 for my frontosa. Get some good ideas on you link. Thanks

Willy,

Will get some oyster shells from my mate who works in a seafood resturant and try it out. Thanks to you too.

Also thanks to everyone who made suggestions along the way.

My frontosas look happy in their new tank.

PMC

Author: Cichlids au

Hi pmc

As you are starting to be aware you just need to buffer the water. Oyster shells will do the job, but a bag of shell grit in the filter will do it better.

I have grit in all my tanks, some in the substrate some in ice-cream container filters (top method) and in others I use a orange bag with damaged whole shells in it.

HTH

Author: Willy wombat

Cichlids AU, i would have to agree, that shell grit is a better buffer in a filter than crushed oyster shells, (more space efficient too). I think it also acts as a good host for nitrifying bacteria. I change my bag in my filter every 6 months or so.....

Willy

Author: Cichlids au

Hi Willy

Yep, and I was glad to see you putting him on the path.

I think that a post about ion exchange would be a great thing for the forum, It would also help push up the general knowledge of all those that read it.

Check this article I have on my site about

The effect of pH changes on your fish.

It does not cover the ion exchange at all. If you do one I think it may end up in the Archives

Author: Lucifer

hi ALL

i been around auburn and seem to cant find any1 selling peat or they dont seem to know what they are. (havent the LFS cuz i think they dont sell them)

dose any1 know of a place near auburn i can get the good quality peat?

thanks

Author: Willy wombat

Lucifer,

try your hardware store, or garden supplies centre. They will usually have quality peat moss for sale at a reasonable price, just make sure you give it a good wash before putting it into your tanks.

Willy

Low PH

Tue, 31 May 2005 11:05:38 +0000

Classic low pH behaviour?

Author: kevy73

I have written another posting here after some answers to why my fish might be dying and what I can do to stop it.... I have another question..... I have been trying to research as much info as I can off the net (just hope the boss doesn't see me whilst at work, do you think he would understand that fish are just more important???)

I am trying to find out if my fish swimming madly ( and I truly mean madly) about upside down, or flat on their side is a symptom of pH shock or could I possibly have more problems I don't know about yet?

Water was tested on Monday 19th May, and ammonia and nitrites were ok.... pH was just VERY low..... 6.2....

I can't find any info on this anywhere, and I know I am only a newbie here, but I would really appreciate some help.....

Thanks,

Kevin

Replies »

Author: saudukar

umm that sounds really bad.

Cichlids so sometimes scratch themselves agianst the bottom in a controlled and ordered manner. Males display in front of females and opponents by shaking themselves slightly in front of them.

What you describe sounds like somehow either thier nervous system has been effected or the swim bladder had sustained damage.

Swim bladder damage: the fish will look like he is unable to sustain a level horizontal state with swimming. Is required that physical damage is inflicted and/or tumour/body structure forces pressure on the bladder distorting the shape of the bladder and makes the fish appear to be on its side.

Central Nervous system: Will appear to swim correctly for awhile then career wildly around. Most commonly this is due to physical damage but can also be due to reactions with certain chemicals.

Author: kevy73

Bugger..... what you have described seems to be exactly what is happening.... the first blue I tried to rescue last night, when in the emergency tank, was swimming like his tail was full of air, if you can picture that... nose down, tail up swimming, once he had managed to keep himself upright......

The same sort of thing with the jewel....

They seem ok, then it is like someone has just bashed the side of the tank, they take off at a million miles an hour.... upside down, on their side...... it is all very distressing not only for then, but for me who feels amazingly responsible for these little creatures!

The only chemicals I have been using are prime and bicarb....

Thanks for your post Saudukar.

Regards,

Kevin

Author: Craig Douglas

If you are only using Sydney tap water then your general hardness is also probably too low. You also need some other salts in the water the make it all happen, Epsom salts or calcium chloride at least. If you want a no trouble remedy have a look at the aqua sonic rift lake salts, good for a beginner, simple and cheap. This is not what I call professional product, but it will get you out of trouble while you are still learning.

Craig.

Author: citypainter

Add some some shell grit to your tank at least 1/2 a cup every 2nd day and watch your ph slowly come up.

Author: Craig Douglas

Be careful with shell grit in small tanks, I've had a bad experience.

Craig.

Nitrate in a FO tank

Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:18:02 +0000

G'day all,

As you all know, nitrate is a definite no-no in a Marine tank. Some of the methods to combat nitrate build up in a SW tank is by the use of a refugium, a deep sand bed or, more recently, a coil denitrator.

I've kept Oscars for years but never really concerned myself with the nitrate levels. I don't think it matters in a FO FW tank, however, I also didn't know alot of stuff before I started on this forum. So do nitrate levels matter? Do they affect the fish in any way, shape or form?

Best regards,

Troy.

pH Buffering

Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:42:59 +0000

pH Buffering

Author: apINconcord

Hey Guys,

My experiences with cichlids have so far only been in Americans but I want to start planning an African tank for Mbuna. My tap water comes out with a pH of 7.4 which is great for my Americans but I will need to achieve a higher pH for Malawi's so my question is if I use coral sand, crushed coral or some kind of rock to buffer up the pH will this achieve the desired pH and stay at that level on its own or will I need to still add salts/bicarb etc on waterchanges? Also will the effect of the coral substrate deteriorate over time?

cheers

Adam

Replies »

Author: sli1504

Adam

from my personal experience the coral sand has been a great buffer no deterioration in levels or changes over time hope this helps... also have heard that chipped marbel is ok and cheaper too good luck .

stew

Author: YeW2001

Hi -

I'd recommend either shell grit or chipped marble (marble sand) over coral sand.

Coral sand is expensive

- and there is no real difference between these substrates.

Best place to buy marble chips or marble sand is Mini-Crete in Lakemba.

HTH -

Ph Crash

Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:46:54 +0000

I as mentioned in a previous post had problems with a tank with Nannochromis in. I thought at the time this was due to small levels of ammonia. I took them out and bought some rasboras to keep the cycle going. 1 hour later all the rasbora were dead and there was no nitrite or ammonia. I measured a low ph at under 6 (Limit of my scale). I figured go up to the LFS and get them to test it using the digital. It came out as 3.2. This would explain the quick deaths and unhappy fish.

Ive drain the tank and refilled it. The ph is already low and im just curious as to possible reasons it would crash. Ive been told low calcium hardness is a possible cause. If so how do i supplement calcium. In the tank ive added seachem ph down but only small amounts as the bottle read drops to 5.4, and i only wanted around 6. Any help of anyone with an understanding of how crashes are caused would be great.

Adam

PH: Buffering tank

Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:56:32 +0000

Gday,

At the moment my tank has a tendency to become more acidic every day, the PH level is dropping.

Is there anything I can add to water to keep the PH level stable?

Thanks

Fox

PH: sodium bicarbonate (buffering)

Wed, 03 Mar 2004 04:27:37 +0000

Have a question about Sodium bicarbonate,

Here is what I know of it

a) is not a buffer

b) will adjust pH to about 7.8 but will not keep it there.

so it adjusts pH but will not keep it there without a buffer correct? I've been told that is a buffer just a weak one? or are my 2 assumptions just wrong? replies from water chemists welcome

Salt: salt additives

Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:09:46 +0000

I've done a search on this forum and can't really find comment on this subject, but was wondering if anyone can comment on the advantages, or the need, to add salt to an African setup? How much per litre? Does it need to be continually added with each water change? Is it totally necessary???

I know it's best to recreate their environment as best you can, but I'm unsure if it's a total necessity as an ongoing requirement?

Thanks.

Tank Cycling

Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:05:40 +0000

I want the damn fish now

Author: flashgordonv

My saga started some weeks ago. Just to summarise. 420 litre tank. 2 x Eheim 2128 and a wet/dry sump. Sand substrate and limestone rocks.

I started cycling with 6 Julies. After 10 days the tank went all cloudy and during the time it was cloudy the Julies died, suspected but nonetheless unbeknown to me. Ammonia levels shot up and I hit the tank with AmmoLock for the sake of the fish..... (this created a problem for me later in measuring the ammonia levels because although the ammonia was converted to ammonium, which supposedly is still available to the nitrifying bacteria, it still registered on my test kit for weeks. It wasn't until I got a Seachem ammonia test kit, which measures free ammonia, that I was able to accurately measure the (bad) ammonia levels in the tank.) After another week, I pulled all the rocks out and found all six fish dead.

So I continued on with a fishless cycle - the ammonia was up there anyway. Eventually the nitrites kicked in. From reading one of the articles on the net about the fishless cycling process I calculated that I needed to add 1/2 cup ammonia a day to keep the process going. I did this and the ammonia was gone within half a day every day. Finally the nitrites dropped to zero but the nitrates were as expected through the roof.

I was all ready to get the first lot of fish for the tank. The night before my visit to the LFS I did a large water change, 80%, in an effort to get the nitrates under control before fish went into the tank (I refilled with treated water and the filters were only off for about 20 minjutes). I finished this and to my horror when I tested the water, not only were the nitrates still off the scale, but the nitrites were peaked again at 5PPM. I did another 50% water change the next day which had no effect on either parameter.

Well, it is now 6 days since I did the big water changes and STILL the nitrites are at 5PPM, 6 days later. Ammonia is 0 but the nitrites are way up there. What the hell is going on here? What can I do about it?

Replies »

Author: starreys

the whole process takes 6 weeks but if you want to speed it up you can take an old filter from an established running tank, that will handle your tank capacity and some old tank water and add it to your tank if you have neither then its just a matter of waiting , try some gold fish they are cheap and wait . Eventually your nitrate level will come down, i know thats no consellation. But you need the bacteria to work on the nitrates and thats where an old filter will come in handy .Hope all that makes sense been a while since i cycled a tank.

Sarah

Author: flashgordonv

It's been 6 weeks, I've been down to 0 PPm for ammonia and nitrites. I just want to kno wwhy the big nirite spike for the last week and what I can do about it. I don't have another tank or access to a cycled filter

Author: MagicaDiSpell

Hi Flashgordon,

I am sorry to hear about your julies. I would always suggest a couple of bristlenose catfish for cycling, if you are setting up a tropical tank. They are pretty hardy, and remain useful after the cycling of your tank is complete. Just feed them a little, not too much.

I am surprised to read that your nitrite levels increased after the waterchange. I am not quite certain where the North Shore gets its water from, but testing the water might be an idea - especially if you are using tankwater vs townwater. Same with the nitrates.

As for nitrates, I would probably not be too paranoid about nitrates. Most cichlids are able to withstand reasonable levels of nitrates, it is only a few species that suffer when nitrates get too high.

In an aquarium situation the options of removing nitrates are limited. You can either perform waterchanges or you can plant some fast growing plants (don't forget to feed them with some aquatic plant food available at your LFS) the third option is using an anaerobic digestor. I have no experience with the last option and don't know how well they work.

Once your tank has stabilised, and you have all the fish in there that you are planning to put in, you can easily calculate how much water you need to change how often, in order to keep nitrate levels constant. Just measure, change the water, measure again and repeat the next day, if the nitrate the next day is as high as the day before (pre-waterchange), then you know that your waterchange maintains that level of nitrate.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your setup.

Author: SamJW

Hi Flash,

Just my two cents...... When you do finally put some fish in your tank, be careful that you don't over do it, as if you do then it may spike again.

Don't beat yourself up to much over it, I'm sure most of us have been there at one stage or another

Good luck

Sam.

Author: meesterclarence

Greetings. We have all definately been there. I'ts the harderst thing in the world sometimes to be patient while the tank cycles. However, as mentioned go easy on the number of fish you intoduce, because the same thing can repeat itself all over again. Stick with a couple of inexpensive, hardy fish. Also remember if you have serious nitrate levels, there is a product for freshwater only, called "nitrazorb", it works wonders!. Best of luck, and sorry to hear about your fish.

Author: Link 2 Hell

Can you explain why you did an 80% water change and turned the filters off on a newly established bacteria colony that was working ........ I think you answered your own questions as to the end result

There are some lessons to be learnt by this on new tanks and filters ...... it most likely wasn't the first prob you have had and it won't be the last ....... just part of the game

Try again but no excessive water changes and don't shut off the filter this time other than that you had it all going right

in the middle

Use something other than Tangs as test fish goldfish work well

L2H

Author: flashgordonv

Sure. Here is my rationale. The nitrate levels were through the roof, greater than 100PPM. I was going to put fish in the tank the next day so the best time to deal with the high levels of nitrate is before the fish get in there and the best way I know how to deal with it is with a decent size water change. By definition the the greatest volume of nitrifying bacteria live in the filters not the tank water. As far as shutting down the filter, it was for less than 20 minutes and my understanding is that this is not long enough to cause death by oxygen deprivation to the bateria. (This is based on extensive research and past experience). But, maybe I am wrong on this.

As far as the cycling fish, I went to the LFS to get something hardy - black molly or the like, but allowed myself to be swayed by the LFS owner........

Author: Cichlids au

If you can make it to Cambelltown I'll lend you an ice-cream container filter and some of my old tank water. (you can have the tank water to keep

)

Author: creature100

just my 2 cents...i have never cycled a tank in my life....and ive never had a fish die on me from adding to the tank straight away.....

Author: Beagly

G'day

I would do exactly what you are doing right now. I believe that it is a much less stressful way to start with a new batch of fish. Whilst you may get away without cycling the tank you may not as well.

PS. I use gravel, water and filters from running tanks and then simply add aged water. Easy and it works for me.

Perhaps if you put your location up in a message a user that lives near to you may be able to help with the lend of some gravel or a filter.

CYA Beagly...

Author: flashgordonv

Thanks Beagly. I live on the Northern Beaches at Killarney Heights. Anybody nearby can spare a mature filter for a few days it would be appreciated

Author: Cichlids au

At least I offered

Cichlids_au

Author: phillipdoan

hey guys,

i have a new 4ftx18x18 and i want to start cycling it before i introduce fish into it, i was wondering if i could use some of the water from my other tanks (they are both cichlid tanks) and put them into my new tank, would this help a lot? i intend to add 3/4 cycled water and 1/4 new water, i'll start doing this as soon as i do a water change for my tanks, would this speed the process of cycling?

do u also think that if i add my internal sponge filter from my other tank, would help?

i am also adding new gravel 'white chipped marble' into it also which might slow down the process of cycling.

any advice? thankyou in advance

p.s. i am intending to use this tank for my Tropheus sp. black Bembas

From Phillip

Author: Cichlids au

Hi Philip

The used water and sponge will do the trick straight away for you. You can also add some of the substrate also.

You will find that this is the same as aging your tank over a prolonged period of time.

I use an Ice-cream container filter and old water at about 3/4 - 1/4 ratio and introduce fish immediately and have never lost fish this way.

After the canister filter has populated I remove the Ice-cream container filter if I want to.

I generally leave them in though. I currently have 4 of them running in tanks that don't need them just so that I can keep them in peak condition should I need to start a new tank or help someone out.

If I were taken up on the offer above, our friend here would have had fish in his tank by Monday.

BTW the new gravel will not affect the process

Cichlids_au

Author: flashgordonv

Hey Cichlids Au

You did offer and I thank you. I appreciate it. You are just a bit for for me....

Author: Cichlids au

No problems Flash.

Cichlids_au

Author: Beagly

G'day

You are of course welcome to some of my bacteria, but I didn't think you would be willing to drive up to KAtoomba for it, but if you change your mind let me know.

CYA Beagly...

Author: flashgordonv

Beagly

thanks for the offer. Appreciated.

Author: calvus75

Hi Flash,

Have to agree with Link here, you shouldn't have shut the filter down & 20 minutes without oxygen is a long time in the prokaryotic world. Sounds like you were 95% there until you did the big change and shutdown (bacterial genocide

)

Anyway, you live and learn (the hard way usually) if you find yourself in the same situation again try a series of 25-30% changes over several days until the system settles, whilst ensuring that your filtration remains on.

Good luck and may the force be with you

paul

Time for cycle?

Wed, 26 Apr 2006 02:41:35 +0000

I'm getting my new tank this Saturday, it's a 6x2x2.5 with a 4ft sump. The total amount of water is about 1000l. I plan to empty a whole bottle of stresszyme into it and then add some bio filled dirty water from the lfs. I'm also adding Wardley dechlorinator and Seachem Tanganyikan salt buffer.

I plan to do the cycle fishlessly. How long would it take as I need to add fish two weeks later? Is there any way to speed up the process?

Bruce