i know this has been done before but could i get some feedback on the amount of bio balls needed per litre of water. and/or the amount of matrix per litre. and if you have time the pro's and con's of bio balls to matrix.thanks in advance for your time and replies

regards

chris

It is a simple enough question but I am not sure which way is correct or even if it matters. I finally stopped the flow to my slow leaking tank and drained it yesterday. When I took the bulkhead fitting off, I noticed that I put the flat side of the bulkhead washer against the glass and the ridged side against the bulkhead. I have a feeling that this is incorrect. Does the ridged side needs to be against the glass and flat side against the bulkhead fitting. Or did I have on correctly. Or does it really matter?

Can someone confirm or deny thinking?

Btw the way the leak was definitely coming through the bulkhead seal. I don't want to silcone it if I can possibly avoid it.

cheers

rosco

I also want to know what brands people think are the best?

I have used it and find that my fish are never timid or stressed when it's being used and it keeps my water crystal clear. The reason i have stopped using it at the moment is because of the fact that wouldn't haven't had the time to take it out and recharge whilst i've been busy. So rather than let it run out and leach impurities into the tank i took it out. My favourite brand is Bio-chem zorb but you can't recharge it. Fluval Carbon seems to be very good also.

Anthony

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2139/dursostandpipe2cc.png

Bruce

I was looking at the DIY on the sydney cichlid page and I am thinking of making something similar to the overhead filter. Its for my 6 x 2 x 2

How many kgs do the bracing hold?

I am only thinking of putting some bioballs and wool in there to remove the finer poo/gunk out of the tank.

Any one have this in place?

Cheers,

Toufic

<br>

<br>

I am setting up a large sump filter for an 8x2x2 Malawi tank quite soon. While I will be using scoria in the main filter section, I have another 50cm x 40cm section before the scoria that I would like to fill up with something like bio-balls. The problem is that bio-balls are pretty expensive if you want to fill an area that size.

<br>

<br>

I think that I read somewhere that it is possible to fold shade cloth on itself several times to get a big surface area. Any suggestions for alternative filter media at a good price?

<br>

<br>

Cheers

<br>

Richard

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Mazimbwe</STRONG><BR><BR>rolls of Gutter-Guard works fine...very cheap too.

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Bit Racer</STRONG><BR><BR>Yes, rolls of gutter guard do work well, however, if you've got the cash for an 8x2x2, then bio ball prices shouldn't set you back too much at 10 cents each.

<br>

<br>

Bit.

<br>

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Harward</STRONG><BR><BR>You know those scrunchy mesh things some ladies like to wash themselves with ?! They work great if you happen to find some dirt cheap. I have a friend that used to work for a company that made/sold them so she got them for free..............

<br>

<br>

<br>

Lata

<br>

Matt

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Adam Maskew</STRONG><BR><BR>Bean bag balls have more surface area than any of the bioballs that are going around at the moment. You just need to be a little creative to hold the suckers were you want them. Just plan 5mm pebbles have just as much surface area as bioballs as well.

<br>

<br>

Its interesting to note that most european aquaculturalists are moving away from bioballs and back to there crushed coral.

<br>

<br>

Hope that helps.

<br>

<br>

Adam

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: crashfragment</STRONG><BR><BR>plastic straws and lego blocks, hehe i don't think lego blocks would be cheaper then bio-balls though...you might have some lying around though

i've heard of hessian bags being used too, and like adam said: ordinary 5mm pebbles should have as much surface area as bio-balls, water might not flow through as easily, not too sure though...

<br>

-shaun

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: danceswithdingoes</STRONG><BR><BR>What about a big piece of larger pored filter foam?

<STRONG>Author: trofius</STRONG><BR><BR>hi all

<br>

i have just made a 50l canister, so know the delemas of choosing media, in this order i have used rocks, then gutter guard, then 20kg crushed,shell, then filter foam 6 inches thick, and some filter wool and then more foam before the pump,, for your application i would try the gutter guard at $2 a roll, (8 meters) its dirt cheap roll it out, cut it up and zip tie it together so that you end up with easy to use bricks of it. hope this helps

<br>

Mick

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: BrownFish</STRONG><BR><BR>To everyone who responded to my post - you guys are awesome

I'll take them all into account depending on local availability.

<br>

<br>

I think Mick's gutter guard made into bricks with zip ties has to get the prize though - I'll see if any of the local shops in Queanbeyan stock it.

<br>

<br>

Although I bought a new tank (ie., the glass bit), the rest of my little project is restoring an old 8ft tank that was a shop display for about 13 years. So the rest of the project is on the cheap. Lots of work with a steel brush, bog, paint, hinges, etc. Hard work but it will be worth it when I'm done.

<br>

<br>

Funnily enough the filter had a lot of coral bits in it when I got it out of the shop, maybe I'll use that instead of or in combination with the scoria.

<br>

<br>

Anyway, thanks again,

<br>

<br>

Richard

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: trofius</STRONG><BR><BR>glad to help Richard

<br>

i got mine fromm bunnings hardware up here but any hardware and even big W has it.. the black cheap stufff not the flash brown anti fungus mold stuff...

<br>

Mick

</DIV>

<br>

I have just brought a new canister filter and was just

<br>

wondering has anyone used it and what you think.

<br>

<br>

Sean

<P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>hmmm I've used scoria in trickle filters and know a few other people who have done so quite successfully but I've never tried it in a canister.

<br>

<br>

I'd be a bit concerned about it clogging up so would probably only use it after quite a bit of pre-filtering.

<br>

<br>

If you're looking for cheap canister media why not use drinking straws?

<br>

I have a fry tank filtered by a fluval 304 using

<br>

- foam prefilter blocks

<br>

- dupla minikaskade bio balls

<br>

- ceramic noodles (that came with the filter)

<br>

- drinking straws

<br>

plus a layer of filter wool on each layer to stop gunk flowing from one to the next.

<br>

When I have tiny fry in the tank I add a foam prefilter on the intake so they don't get sucked in but apart from this there is no other filtration or aeration (there are some plants and the canister outlet is at the water surface to aid in oxygenation).

<br>

<br>

This lot has worked happily for months without problems.

<br>

<br>

Laurie

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nev62</STRONG><BR><BR>I've only used it in DIY filters, sorry.

<br>

Nev

<br>

<P><STRONG>Author: blue gularis</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi sean,

<br>

I have used it for years. Ehiem used to recomend it for thier canister filters before the came up with the white sintered glass. Pieces over 1 inch are one of the few filter media that support anarobic bacteria.

<br>

<br>

In Europe and Southern America it is widely used for filters if you typed in lava rock+filters into your search engine you should get a bit more info.

<br>

<br>

Gary H-H

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: AmericanPhysco</STRONG><BR><BR>sorta off the topic but anyways....

<br>

<br>

i wanted to ask you guys if youve had experience with algae growth in the pipes of your cannister filters. I used clear hosing for mine and after a few months ive noticed small, round,green growth in the hoses...what to do...good or bad??

<br>

<br>

thanks guys

<br>

<br>

Johnno

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: spedwards</STRONG><BR><BR>I've got the green eheim hoses on my eheim filter (funny that), after afew years of running the pipes got really clogged up with "stuff" which reduced the flow rate and the filter became quite noisy.

<br>

<br>

I don't necessarily think that it is a bad thing having it there, there isn't really a lot you can do to stop it. Every couple of months now i just take the hoses out and run water through them using the laundry tap as it seems to get better pressure and i can put the pipe onto it.

<br>

Jon

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Baz</STRONG><BR><BR>Your lfs should be able to sell you (or order you) a cleaner for the hoses. It is a long bit of flexi wire with a bristly brush on each end. Under normal running water, poke an end in the hose as far as it will go then pull it back out and stand back in amazement at the amount of crap you had in there. I've used one of these for about 10 yrs now with no problems at all.

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: AmericanPhysco</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for that guys! got me worried for second!

<br>

<br>

Johnno

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: dodol</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Gary,

<br>

<br>

Lava rocks that are sold for BBQ has a warning that it may contain gas. Are they safe for filter? Coles sells volcanic rock for BBQ but its all black. Are they the same?

<br>

<br>

Thanks.

<br>

<br>

DD

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: blue gularis</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi DD

<br>

I have never read the packaging. But I give mine a good soak at least two day and a good wash this would force out any gas that was in them. I would say the warnings there for insurance purposes incase it flared up when someone lit the BBQ.

<br>

<br>

The red larva rock is the best but the black still works, I am using the black at the moment. I used to get it from a my local garden supply, take a bucket and pick through the pile and get the size bits I needed. Because of public liabilty they wont let me look through thier piles any more.

<br>

<br>

The bacteria in your filter needs something to attach to you could put a smelly old sandshoe in your filter and the bacteria will still colonise it. When you overfeed the whole tank becomes a filter you can feel this buy running your finger along the glass on the inside of the tank if it is slimey the tank is overfeed or stocked.

<br>

<br>

Gary H-H

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: fishbits</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks I will give it a go.

<br>

Sean

In the Eheim 2229 pro they have the "Ehime" special filter media. They expressly say that the wet/dry surge system of this filter will not operate correctly without using their stuff. Do they speak with fork tongue? Is there an alternative material, not as expensive that still allows the unit to work correctly?

Someone must have been down this track.

Cheers

glenn

<br>

Wayne

<p></P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: lungy01</STRONG><BR><BR>LOL thought ya said ya din want niagra ...

<br>

yer tank is only 800 ltr's less (displacement

) so

<br>

yer sump pump (4.5 .... ) will be heaps ...

.. Unless ya wanna keep all yer fish up one end : lol : lol : lol : lol ...

<br>

Andy...

<br>

<p>

EMINEM & LINKIN PARK RULE & I ALSO HAVE A LARGE COD !!!

<br>

<br>

Brownsplains - Brisbane - drumpak@bigpond.com</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: danceswithdingoes</STRONG><BR><BR>Wayne, why do you feel you need the extra filtration of the canister? The mini-reef should be sufficient. If you need chemical filtration bags of resins can be added to the sump.

<p>

<br>

If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests?</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>As an idea, my sump for a 5x2x2 I designed to be 750Lx400Wx500H. It contains 30L of Aquasonic Ovi-flow bio-balls (I think that's 750 units). Bio-balls generally for most cichlids and other messy fish in moderate to high stocking you want 3-5% of the tank volume in bio-balls. Reef tanks you use 4-7%.... Tropicals and planted tanks 2-4% works...

<br>

<br>

Theoretically, you only need enough flow to allow good contact time and distribution over the bio-media. Unlike mechanical filtration (cannisters etc) the turnover rate is not to remove suspended particles but simply to allow the bacteria time enough to decompose the wastes. This is a complex question but generally speaking - if you're using a spray arm then you can use slightly less flow rate since this distributes very nicely... If you are using a drip tray, in my experiences, you want a slightly larger flow rate. I run my 5x2x2 currently on 2500lph however I'm in the process of reconstructing the sump/wetdry filter and when it's finished I'll be running around 3500lph. I find the water distributes a lot more nicely over the bio-balls through the drip tray with the larger flow rate. Sure, you could just put less holes or smaller holes but it's nice to have a fine shower over the whole lot of the bio-media chamber. It's useless to have a large amount of bio-media with such a large total surface area, if only a moderate proportion of the media is in contact with water most of the time (but not submersed).

<br>

<br>

Your wet/dry will do wonders for your biological filtration. If you wish to use a cannister filter that's a great idea for mechanical (and chemical if you wish). I'd just pack it full of sponges of different grades and use it as a handy way of pulling out more suspended matter. Weir's for wet/dry's don't tend to pull out all of the suspended particles quickly especially with messy eaters and so a cannister or other mechanical aid will help with this. Even with my high flow rate on my 5x2x2, it takes several hours after a feeding for the water to become crystal clear again. Once I added another mechanical aid, the water is crystal clear in a matter of 10-15 minutes.

<br>

<br>

In summary - with regards to your 8x2x2... I would run two weirs (one in each end) with 2x25mm bulkheads (one in each) plumb'd to a central wet/dry filter underneath. Run pre-filters in the weir overflows and if you are running moderate cichlid loads then around 40L of bio-balls should do the trick. Dispersion will be tricky so you may need to split this up into two bio-media chambers each with its own drip tray / spray arm - plumb each overflow into its own media chamber. You'll want a pump (or two pumps) such that you have a minimum turnover rate of 4000-5000lph. I strongly believe in overkill. If you want a bit of extra mechanical aid then you could add that cannister filter or perhaps an internal filter... your choice - 2 weirs should do a lot nicer than one however at moving suspended matter.

<br>

<br>

Hope this helps,

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

<br>

<br>

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: aquarooms</STRONG><BR><BR>have to agree with Adam go with over kill, and dont buy aquarium power head/ sump pumps, go to your nearest irrigation shop and buy a 24hour rated sump pump,

<br>

<br>

try and stay away from brands like DAVEY, Grundfos, as they claim to be 24hour rated but are not,

<br>

<br>

and add the canister as well as overflows dont normally catch all bottom dirt/ debre

<br>

<br>

my 2cents

<br>

<br>

tony_aquarooms

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>On my 500 litre reef tank, I have a via aqua 4900, which is a cheap dodgy pump, but is very quiet and has been going fine for a year. If you are worried about the noise of the overflow, there has been a recent thread on here about standpipes, where there were a couple of links to Durso standpipes, which limit the waterfall to a couple of inches, and if tuned properly wont even gurgle, mine is almost silent, even with such a large turnover.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Downunder</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for the advice guys. Really helpfull feedback. The ideas you had Andy for the two overflows plumbed into a central sump is the design I am going for. As for the tank load I'm going for a Lake Malawi set up with a fibreglass backing and sides. I now figure the way I was going should be okay. I am planning on plumbing my cannister into behind my background ( it will have holes in it for the water to move through) for sucking up the debris that gets trapped there, with the return going into the main tank area. The tank will be drilled in the back wall of the overflows, so I won't require the standpipe idea, hoping that the noise won't be too bad. I'm also planning on using some filtering pad in the overflow as a pre-filter to stop large particles from getting through to the sump and also this may take some noise away from the overflowing water. Once again thanks for your input guys.

<br>

Wayne

<p></P></DIV>

<br>

<br>

im looking at setting a 4footer very soon, but having some trouble deciding on the type of filtration to use for it? UGF with power heads, cannister? Trickle sump ...etc Would some one please give me some tips on their previuos experience and tell me why some would prefer UGF over the cannister and Trickle and vice versa?

<br>

Thanks guys, appreciate it!

<br>

<br>

Johnno

</P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>everyone seems to have their own preferences in regard to filtration, the only agreed theme being that you can never get too much of it (hmmm unless your tank is in your house and you object to that sleeping-next-to-a-waterfall kinda atmosphere)

<br>

<br>

I would probably opt for a canister (plus some surface-skimming/mechanical filtration) and wouldn't even consider the UGF. If it's a 4x2x2 or larger and you can/plan-to plumb other tanks in I might consider a trickle system.

<br>

<br>

UGF

<br>

- almost impossible to maintain

<br>

- isn't particularly (at all?) effective

<br>

- will suffer from gravel digging by your fish.

<br>

<br>

trickle filter

<br>

- generally a bit big, noisy and cumbersome for anything smaller than a 4x2x2 or a rack.

<br>

-can be relatively cheap if you're filtering a larger tank or mutiple tanks (if you put it together yourself... buying one from a LFS is not cheap)

<br>

- very effective bilogical filtration and can cope with significant variations in fish load

<br>

- a bit tricky to get the water from the tank to your filter if you already have the tank and it's not drilled... you either have to get someone to to drill it (risky and costs around $60... if you can find someone with a portable glass drill) or use a siphon setup which is expensive unless you make your own.

<br>

<br>

Canister

<br>

- smaller, quieter and easier to manage than trickle filters

<br>

- effective biological filtration but you probably need something else for mechanical filtration.

<br>

- will probably end up more expensive than a trickle filter by the time you add mechanical filtration.

<br>

- seem to "crash" a bit more drastically and recover more slowly than a trickle system if you switch one off and forget to switch it back on *embarrassed grimace* or you get a power outage of some sort.

<br>

<br>

ps: woops I just noticed the word "experienced" in the subject.... I should probably delete this post

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Laurie

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hmm that was pretty informative Laurie, but im still left feeling a bit confused!! How about attatching a Bio Max filtered sponge onto the UGF pipes and running powerheads off that? As you can gather im pretty new at the fish scene, so im not really familiar when you say, "surface-skimming/mechanical filtration". would you be able to elaborate on that please? So if i opt for a cannister what else would i need? the tanks size is 48"x18"x18", ive looked at the Eheim 2217, but was advised by some that its not powerful enough and others say that is fine. Any recommendations at all?

<br>

<br>

<br>

thanks

<br>

<br>

Johnno

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: ducksta</STRONG><BR><BR>It depends on the fish you intend to keep... If you are posting here I assume cichlids but this may not be the case. Either way - what kind of cichlids? Large/small one or multiple fish?

<br>

<br>

In addition to a cannister you could try a hang on back (HOB) filter. They are very effective filters in my opinion.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: AndrewP</STRONG><BR><BR>Under gravel filters are crap for cichlids and IMO crap period, keep well clear of them, you need to have the gravel deep and undisturbed for the UG to work properly, cichlids continuously dig making the UG totally inaffective and deep gravel attracts too much waste thus causing very high nitrate levels over time for which nothing can be done.

<br>

<br>

For a standard 4 footer the best combo by far is a cannister with the support of a hangon power filter. For example I have always used eheim cannister filters with aquaclear hangons, this is an excellent way to filter the tank and you can keep your gravel to a nice thin layer of around an inch (therefore not attracting much waste).

<br>

<br>

You dont need to be confused any more, stay away from UG's and use the combo I mentioned. You dont have to use an eheim as they are expensive but another cheaper type of cannister would be fine with an aquaclear or penguin bio wheel.

<br>

<br>

<br>

If you have any more questions you can email me or put up another reply here.

<br>

<br>

Regards AndrewP

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Arj</STRONG><BR><BR>I have to agree. i started with ug filters and they are crap. they keep the water clear but when you need to clean them..well..thats another story. i don't have have any u/g filters anymore and i never will.

<br>

<br>

why not use the ice cream tub & coke bottle fitler for fry tanks? even corner filters. other than that, for bigger tanks, use a cannister and internal power or HOB filters. I have a trickle filter for my 6x2x2. you can have a look at that on my website as to how i set it up.

<br>

<br>

for cannister filters, i would get the eheim. i have fluval 304 & 404 and eventhough they have not given me any trouble (touch wood) i would not buy them anymore. IMO there is a flaw in the design where there is or seems to be air trapped near the impellar continuously and everytime you shake the cannister, air bubbles come out. anyway most others seem to have lots of trouble with them.

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

Arj

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hey thanks for that advise,

<br>

<br>

i'll look into those hangon power filters and the cannister. If im using a 48x18x18 how many times do i need to cycle the total volume through the cannister?What i mean is, the Eheim 2217 says its sufficient for tanks up to 600Ls. So it that good enough for a 260L tank? Or what about the Eheim ecco 2235,

<br>

Canister filter 600lph?? If i get a cannister that if sufficient for my tank, how powerful does the internal power filter have to be? I appreciate the help as i dont wana get ripped when buying something, maybe get conned into buying something i dont really need. Or look like a dill asking stupid questions.

<br>

<br>

thanks Andrew.

<br>

<br>

Johnno

<br>

<br>

PS im keeping 2 oscars, Pleco, Knife, 3 salmotails.

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>For a 4x2x2 or 4x18s, dont use UG filters. It will limit the type of tank and fish you can have. e.g. Plants will not grow as well in those tanks (except for hardy var. eg. anubias, swords, Java fern etc). It is true that a fair bit of mulm will accumulate beneath the UG plates, but the main concern is the 'long term' maintenance of the tanks. After a period of time (usually >12mths, depending of stocking levels etc), you may find that the water may not be as clear or that the fish may not appear as healthy. The gravel will tend to become more compacted as time goes by. This will restrict the water flow through the gravel, hence limit the effectiveness to hold biological bacterial to break down ammonia etc. UG is effective in situations where you will regularly vacumm the substrate (right to the UG plates). This will prevent the 'packing' behaviour of the gravel.

<br>

<br>

Cannister filters are excellent alternatives to UG. If properly maintained, they generally last for many years and can provide both biological and mechanical filtration (depending on media combinations). They will also provide water movement in the tank. The drawbacks of cannisters is maintenance. If you neglect cleaning the filters on a regular basis (i.e. minimum monthly), you may find that the waterflow will reduce substantially. I have used cannister filters (fluval 404 and eheim on my 6x2x2 with oscars and severums) and found them to be very good.

<br>

<br>

Having said all that, I would recommend trickle filters. By simply having the tank maker drill a hole in the upper corner of the tank, you can easily have a trickle filter system. The trickle filter can be as simple as a bucket (with lids) with water from the tank coming in from the top through various filter media (e.g. filter mat, ceramic rings/bioballs) and a pump at the bottom of the bucket to return the water to the tank. Alternatively, a small 2 footer can be used instead of the bucket. I used those tupperware containers (3 of them) tiered in a 2 foot tank underneath my 4 footer. The first layer is simply filter mats. The holes at the bottom of the container lets water pass down to the next container and so on. The main advantage with this system is maintenance. By regularly (weekly) removing/cleaning the first filter layer (e.g. filter mat) you can reduce the nitrate levels significantly. In a nutshell, you are removing materials that will eventually be broken down by bacteria into nitrite/nitrate.

<br>

<br>

Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps...

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>oh yeah, one more thing, should you ever decide to switch the tank into marine *gasp*shock* having a trickle filter there already makes things a lot easier.

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Damn this forum is helpful! You guys are great hehe! However b3dlam, there is also something i would like to know with the Trickle Filter option. Once the plumbing has all been set up, the drilled hole, pvc piping, filtering through the various mediums, how powerful should the water pump be? I mean how do you determine the flow rate of the water flowing down through the pipes in order to have the corresct power pushing the water back up?

<br>

<br>

Johnno

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Beagly</STRONG><BR><BR>G'day

<br>

<br>

Dunno about the experienced bit. But for my 2 cents worth.

<br>

<br>

If you are a beginner I would choose a Cannister Filter. Eheim 2217 (Great filter, a little bit $$ but much less hassles). The use of a bio wheel may also be of benefit. (?) Depending on what you want to put into the tank.

<br>

<br>

If you are experienced then maybe go for a Trickle Filter. These do the best job of filtering, however they can be noisy and you do have to keep topping the tank up, weekly.

<br>

<br>

Oops I almost forgot the UGF. Oh well.

<br>

I am not a fan of these things. Ever had a major Blackout with one of these? When you do and all of your fish die, you will see why I hate these things. (With a cannister you simply wash it out and then no dead fish.)

<br>

<br>

By the way don't skimp, put an airstone in the tank as well. This will also help if a blackout hits.

<br>

<br>

Hope this helps

<br>

<br>

CYA Beagly...

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>cool that sounds good! I think i might try the trickle system and see how that goes. Can some one please tell me with the DIY bucket system...what is the lid spray bar and how does this work? If the water is to be running from the tank down into the bucket, how does the sprinkler get set it off and turn it??? Once i have made this bucket filter i need to place it in a large container of some sort right? and as the water flows in the pump pushes it back up into the tank? Well how do i choose the correct pump in terms of litres/hour to accomodate the water over flowing into the bucket?

<br>

<br>

Johnno

<br>

<br>

much appreciated guys

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>With the trickle filter I made myself, I used a standard 2 footer. My reasoning was that if I ever decide to remove the trickle filter, the sump can be used for other things (fry, plants etc). With the bucket method, its a little bit more tricky. Some people use to fill half the bucket with bioballs and a round container to hold the filter mat. The round container is drilled at the bottom with many tiny holes. With the filter matt in it, you will find that a spray bar is totally unnecessary. The water will drip from the holes (just try to make the container as level as possible). You can put a pump at the bottom of the bucket, just make sure that the impeller is not totally exposed (i.e. use the pump cover/guard) so that none of the bioballs will be lodged into the intake. There is no need to drill any holes in the bucket itself, just the lid. I would use a pump that is rated 3xVolume of your tank per hour). It is true that the pump output will be less because it has to pump water up from the sump, but a trickle filter is much much more efficient than that of a submersed filter. <insert theory of surface area of media and oxygen here>.

<br>

Added benefits also include increased oxygen in the water, making air pump unnecessary. People's reservations on using a diy trickle system is totally understandable. As with all things, it gets better with experience and some research. The costs of the system is surprisingly cheap:

<br>

1. 2 foot tank (2nd hand $10) or bucket (used by bakers to hold flour - free).

<br>

2. Containers ($5-10)

<br>

3. Filter mats ($10-15)

<br>

4. pump $80-100

<br>

5. hoses and fittings from hardware store $15-20.

<br>

6. Bioballs ($20)

<br>

7. Satisfaction of knowing you did it yourself (priceless...)

<br>

For everything else, there are always cannister filters.

<br>

<br>

It is possible to do this cheaply. But by far the easiest way to filter a tank is using cannister filters and those hang on back type filters as mentioned by the posts above.

<br>

<br>

Let us know how you go!!

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: nornicle</STRONG><BR><BR>I've never used a trickle filter because I've never kept a tank bigger than a 4X2X2. A 4X18X18 with a trickle filter is sort of overkill.

<br>

<br>

They are cheaper and much more effective than canister filters if done correctly.

<br>

<br>

However, they require a little more technical savvy than I reckon a beginner should have to deal with.

<br>

<br>

So I would recommend for a standard 4ft an Eheim 2215 or 2217. The canister will do everything you need if you fill it with the right media. Personally I would use just a filter pad and then fill the rest with biological media like pumice (or *Seachem Matrix*).

<br>

<br>

Oscars tend to be very messy fish and need a lot of filtration. I would go with a 2217 and you should have no worries.

<br>

<br>

regards

<br>

<br>

Richard

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Hmm so it seems that the Eheim 2217 has the vote...and also the trickle system if i had more experience. Well thanks guys i'll keep you posted on the what happens with the tank and hopefully get some pics up. im in the process of building the cabinet and won't be getting the tank and setup till its complete. I might get he cannister and see if its sufficient, if not i'll add the internal power filter...I really wouldnt mind trying out the trickle system, not bc its a cheaper alternative, but to acutally see if i can make the thing work properly. Have you guys heard of the Eheim ecco 2235?? This one is roughly the same price as the 2217 and was wondering if anyone had used these before, whether there are advantages over the 2217. Once again guys, thanks for the help, been very helpful.

<br>

<br>

Johnno

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: az</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi Johnno

<br>

<br>

Personally in a 4' stand alone I would use a hang on such as aquaclear 300 and a large corner filter, all up cost $88 bucks.

<br>

<br>

For the eheim 2217 check trans in Canley Vale, last time I bought one for $230.

<br>

<br>

Cheers

<br>

<br>

Andreas

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Baz</STRONG><BR><BR>I agree with other opinions that a trickle filter might be overkill on a tank of this size. My preferences would be an eheim canister if u can afford it, a fluval cannister if u cannot afford the eheim, and then i'd go for aquaclears if they are both out of your price range.

<br>

the downside with aquaclears is you might need 2 on a tank that size, but the upside is they are real easy to clean and maintain.

<br>

The recommended size is to get a filter (or a combination of filters) that will turn over the tank volume 4 times an hour.

<br>

However I normally aim for 7-8 times, which means a cleaner tank and less maintenence. This would be especially important with oscars, which are real pigs and seem to enjoy spitting food all over the place.

<br>

BTW regular syphoning over your substrate is also important with oscars. They eat a LOT which means they also crap a lot too. In a few weeks the bottom of the tank can resemble the elephant enclosure at the zoo, with huge turd piles all over the place

<br>

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>Thank Az but im actually in melbourne! the price isnt too much of an issue, i can get the filters for decent prices, a little lower than that though. My friends runing a slightlt smaller tank 48x14x18 with a Fluval, i cant remember the number could be the 304 and it doesnt seem to be ver strong with the suction and the return. Thats why i was asking about the number of cycles.

<br>

<br>

So Baz, the 2217 is sufficient to the do the job right? but it says for tanks up to 600l. does really say the number of lph.

<br>

<br>

thanks

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>As I mentioned in my earlier post, a cannister/hob type filter is by far the easiest way to go. You really can't go too much wrong with these types of filters. Plug and Play aye??!?

<br>

However, a trickle filter is really not that difficult to do (IMHO) but i guess it all depends on how technical and experimental you want to go with your tank. Seeing that you are just starting out, I concede that a trickle filter is adding more complexity to an already complex topic.

<br>

I still believe that people should *try* it out at least once.... Like me, i think people will be very surprised as to how easy it was to do and the ease of maintenance (compared to cannisters) and the actual results.

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

<br>

ps. I do apologise if my posts/comments were confusing or detracted you from fishkeeping. It was not intended.

<br>

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: WildOscar</STRONG><BR><BR>I think i will stick with the cannister and internal powerfilter and while thats running the 4', i'll be experimenting with the bucket system! would some please tell about the pump if i use the trickle system? Everyone has been really great, however i wanted to ask yous about the pump at the bottom. The rate at which the water falls into the bucket isnt really know right? so how do you find the sufficient pump? ie what is the pump is to strong and the water isnt flowing down fast enough..etc.??

</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: b3dlam</STRONG><BR><BR>A trickle filter is much more efficient than a submersed type filter. As such, the general rule for tank turnover is not really applicable (this is one of the reasons why ppl say it adds complexity etc). I would personally use a pump that is rated to filter 3 x tank volume per hour. e.g. if the tank has 200 litres of water, I would use a 600-700Lph pump. You can go a bit higher but it isnt really necessary as the capacity of trickle filters are so much more...

<br>

With regards to the "..pump is to strong and the water isnt flowing down fast enough.." question, the hose from the tank to the bucket should be bigger than the one from the pump back to the tank.

,

<br>

<br>

I am converting my old tropical 2' tank to a tank for the little 1 - 2 cm juvenlies that have in another tank, or fry if I ever get any

, until they are big enough to move into my other bigger tanks. Currently I have an internal powerhead but I fear that if I use this filter that the little fish will get sucked in and spat out the other side. Being relatively new to this kind of fish keeping any suggestions welcomed

<br>

<br>

<br>

<br>

PR

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: mbuna1</STRONG><BR><BR>i would sugest an air driven sponge filter or even an ice cream container filter (in the diy section on the scp) You could always put a piece of sponge over the powerhaed intake aswell

<br>

hth

<br>

Harry

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Little Swimmer</STRONG><BR><BR>i recently picked up a few box/corner filters from the reject shop for $1.99, with filter wool, foam and charcol. these work a treat in my tank

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: slotha</STRONG><BR><BR>I just put a sponge over 2 of my filters. 1 was a cannister and the other a HOB filter. So far i haven't had a prob and i didn't have to wait for the Bacteria either as it was established already

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Fry tanks = air driven sponge filter.You can try the corner filters, ice cream container types..

<br>

<br>

Or if you want something real nice then hit Age of Aquariums above and try out the air sponge filters there. I bought 2 of them and they are great - top quality sponges (rinse out in a small bucket of water from the tank and re-use) and nice looking unit too.

<br>

<br>

Also sponge filters with the sponge exposed have the added benefit of creating a small accumulation of bits and pieces on the surface that fry sometimes feed from - can't do this with corner filters where the wool is encased by plastic. Just make sure you run two and clean them alternately every few weeks to make sure one retains some bacteria and an accumulation of goodies.

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: paparossco</STRONG><BR><BR>Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I will probably see what my budget (sorry wife) allows me to spend

<br>

<br>

</DIV>

Aline ('Chipimbi'), I remember you saying something about having ones of these on your tropheus tanks?

Also PS: I cant use the sump its too noisy LOL, so gotta get a few smaller ones.

PPS: I know water changes reduce nitrates but i am talking about complete erradication, or as much as possible.

I thought I'd start a list of recommended filters etc. Please also state the reason you like this filter over the competition.

Also - no naming of bad brands - just your favourite and why.

Copy and Paste this section and edit your choices:

Value for money:

Corner filter (Cheap, effective and quiet)

HOB:

Aquaclear, aquaclear, aquaclear. Excellent design, reliable and quiet.

Internal power filter:

Use to like the fluval range (don't know if they are available anymore)

Canister:

Eheim professional series - the square ones. Almost completely silent. Good design.

Cheers -

I am gradually making my way through my DIY system. And now, I am in need if a sump pump (and some sump ideas).

I need a pump that has a delivery rate of around 3000L/ph when it has pumped the water 1.5m upwards.

I would be very grateful if you could post your system and pump recomendations.

If I was to get a hole saw to cut holes in tanks for plumbing, which size would be the most usefull 32mm, 35mm, 38mm, 45mm ?

I am not sure what size plumbing fixtures would be most useful or most common...

comments? opinions?

Thanks in advance

I currently have oyster shells in a large onion bag (5kg bag I think ) but the weave of that that bag is too big for the limestone 'gravel' I will be using.

I'm under the impression that some fruits or veges come in large bags which are a nice fine weave similar to a media bag, but am yet to find any.

Of course I'll happily buy a purpose-designed bag from an aquarium store but I am not sure if they come in a large size. Does anyone know?

This filter is a huge improvement on the other design as it no longer has any internal plumbing in it that you have to squeeze filter material around. I can now drop in bags of media instead of packing stuff around a piece of PVC piping. This makes it easier to choose and maintain your media. One of the bigger bonus's though is the fact that it has a prefilter. Just lift the the black verticle filter out and wash under the tap/bucket. This beasty has about 80Ltrs of media and has 12 airstones with room for another four and pumps out conservatively 3000 Ltrs a side. Its way overkill but its the way I like it

I've currently got 50Ltrs of aquaclay balls and coral,sponge and filterwool as media so it should be able to handle anything I throw at it

Here are a few Pics

And here is a little prototype 14 inch tank that Pacco made recently. This one has a seperate compartment for the heater to sit in near the uplift so everything is concealed in one unit with plenty of water flowing around it.. For a display tank maybe smoked glass would be a better choice

Anyway I'm pretty happy with the filter and will post up some pics when the tank is decorated and full of fish

I dont know of any technical detail but pacco has kindly written an article on the tanks construction or he may answer here

Chuck

<br>

To overcome the large drop the water has to fall going from the tank down to the mini reef via the overflow i attached a tap in between the bulkhead and the mini reef so i could slow up the flow and therefore increase the water inside the overflow.

<br>

However im struggling because the water level inside the tank and also inside the mini reef is either going up or down

. (ie - if the water level in the mini reef is going up i slow down the flow from the weir, however this in turn increases the water level in the tank) which is bad because either the water will overspill from the tank or from the mini reef. Anyway like i said its hard to explain, however i may be able to clear things up if you guys tell me which bit is alittle unclear.

<br>

<br>

thanks

<p></P></DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: diversmurf</STRONG><BR><BR>you'll end up chasing your tail if you try to adjust the flow with a tap! If the flow rate of the pump varies at all, it will change the flow rate of the water returning to the sump.

<br>

The whole idea of the overflow is that you do not need to regulate the amount of water entering the sump because it is exactly the same as the rate the pump is pumping the water back into the tank.

<br>

<br>

diversmurf

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>hi,

<br>

I agree with diversmurf... you're not likely to have much success with a tap on your drain pipe.

<br>

I take it that your overflow drain drops straight down to your sump does it?

<br>

and the problem with that is that it's producng a heck of a lot of noise and water splash?

<br>

<br>

If this is ther case then your solution is to provide the equivalent of an S-bend in your drain pipe to break the fall.

<br>

You can do this with a series of right-angle turns in your drain pipe though I just set one up using flexible clear plastic tubing which works better as you can make smooth curves and ensure the water never free-falls and hence minimises any noise and splash.

<br>

<br>

If it's actually something else you're trying to solve then ignore me...

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Laurie

<br>

<p>

<br></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: akroyd</STRONG><BR><BR>

www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe.htm

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: searlesy</STRONG><BR><BR>Here is a pic of my DIY durso, (minus endcap) the 2 45 degree bends are to offset the whole thing, as my OF is narrow, or alternatively I could have made a stockman pipe.

<br>

<br>

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: Private Rich</STRONG><BR><BR>have you try drilling some small holes in the pipe that you stick it up in the mini-reef?

<p></P></DIV><p><p><div align='center'>The Sydney Cichlid Page ©2004</div>

<br>

<br>

Well, I have decided to live the dream and am soon to start up an 8 foot tank Malawi tank. I was wondering whether anyone out there could share your wisdom on filtration.

<br>

<br>

I bought a secondhand setup but sold the tank for a new 8x2x2 with a weir. I will be operating an undergravel with powerheads. The sump that I have is a four foot tank with three sections. The middle section actually snakes around courtesy of 2 glass dividers that reach four fifths of the width of the tank. Anyway, here's my thoughts on the filter media:

<br>

<br>

In the first section I was going to have bio-balls but this could be expensive. I had heard that cheaper substitutes such as folded up shade cloth could do just the same job. Any suggestions or views?

<br>

<br>

In the second (snaking) section I was thinking that I could put in some scoria (that red gravel stuff). I was hoping to grow some plants in this section. Any suggestions on how I should do this (obviously I need a light)? Is the scoria a bad idea?

<br>

<br>

What fish? Well, I guess I'd better save that question for another post while I'm waiting for the tank to cycle

'

<br>

<br>

Cheers and I look forward to receiving (and appreciate) any help that you guys and gals can give.

<br>

<br>

Richard

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: crashfragment</STRONG><BR><BR>What sort of pre-filter is there for the sump?

<br>

You will need something to filter out solid wastes before they hit the bio-media. Personal preference: i'd put the scoria first and the bio-balls second, i reckon the scoria wil act as another pre-filter x bio-media, before the water reaches the purely biological media-the bio-balls.

<br>

Sounds like a pretty good set-up. I would maybe think about getting rid of the undergravel filter though, in my experience an undergravel (using gravity to its advantage) will pull ALL the waste down leaving expensive canisters, trickles and wet/drys with nothing to do. No matter how powerful a canister etc. they can't compete with gravity pulling waste down into the gravel. This just helps the ineffiecient undergravel filter, making lots of siphoning work for you. Use a slightly thinner layer of gravel and you won't need to use the undergravel. Just my two cents, based on experience and personal preference.

<br>

Hope this helps.

<br>

-shaun

<p>

------------------

<br>

www.butterflyeffect.com.au/news.html</P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: jaz1986</STRONG><BR><BR>If you wanna put a plant filter in, then go for it... it is a great Idea... I would suggest scoria as it has a double advantage of being a good substrate for nitrifying bacteria.

<br>

<br>

For plants, depending on what sort you wanted, would need a varying amount of light... One plant that I can suggest as it is low growing, fast growing... and EDIBLE is water cress... being a brasscia (same sorta plant as caulie, cabbage and broccolii) it sucks up heaps of nutrients... and then it can spice up your salads too

<br>

<br>

All you need to do with the plants, is once it has covered the entire section that it is able, cut half of it back to gravel level and eat it or trow it on the garden (wash it befor you eat it too be sure!)! This will eliminate the nutrients from the system, and allow more nutrients to be absorbed!

<br>

<br>

If you want to email me, I have had a fair bit of experience with artificial wetlands for water treatment... and would do my best to help... if I can't... I could find out for you...

<br>

<br>

email is:

aantreklik@optushome.com.au

<br>

<br>

Good Luck!!

<br>

Jared

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: colfish</STRONG><BR><BR>hi richard

<br>

just bear in mind that plants need light bacteria need darkness good luck

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: BrownFish</STRONG><BR><BR>Hi guys, thanks a heap for your thoughtful responses.

<br>

<br>

In response to Shaun. I'm pretty new to this game but as far s far as the pre-filter for the sump goes, I take it you meant what goes in the weir. I was going to use that synthetic wool. I was going to put a two inch think mat of twisted plastic fibres that came with the filter as the first thing the water comes into contact after it leaves the weir. Then I was going to have bio-balls with the second chamber with the scoria and plants. I think that you have talked me out of the undergravel filter though. Still, I'll get some powerheads to stir up the bottom. What I could do is leave the plate in. Isn't a plenum like this supposed to be good for a bit of anaerobic activity?

<br>

<br>

Jared, thanks for the advice. Call me greedy but I was hoping to grow some crypts or something that I could sell. I will try the Water Cress but how do you grow it from seed in that kind of environment? I think that I will put the Water Cress back into the fish food rather than eating it - don't think the wife could stand the thought. What is would be the preferred media? Ceramic bonsai pots with gravel and/or soil? Thanks for the offer, I'll probably hassle you once I have finished painting the stand.

<br>

<br>

And to Colfish, good thought, I might have to paint the dividers between the bio-ball chamber and the plant chamber and also put some sheets of ply wood on top.

<br>

<br>

Cheers

<br>

Richard

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: 23Skidoo</STRONG><BR><BR>If you want enough plants to help filtering an 8x2x2(?) i don't know if crypts and other plants like it will be able to do much, unless you have enoguh of them, if you wanted water plants for resale, go with something that grows more like a weed, the more plants the more good it will do.

<br>

...and Jaz, i'm looking at putting together some tanks that rely solely upon plant/natural filtration could yo suggest any good resources? web pages/books/articles?

<br>

Thanks and good luck Brownfish

<br>

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: crashfragment</STRONG><BR><BR>hey richard,

<br>

yeah i meant to type "water entering the weir"

hehe glad you knew what i meant.

<br>

glad to hear i talked you out of the u/gravel, can't see any problem with leaving the plate in, might help stop the gravel ever getting stagnant (?). the powerheads in the tank will be a huge help. sounds like you'll have a pretty awesome setup

<br>

-shaun

</DIV>

<br>

<br>

I am after a reliable water pump capable of supporting two 6x2x2 tanks, Since the pump is going to be running in the spare bed room, I need it to be whisper quiet as we may have guests staying in that room from time to time. Cheap running cost is a bonus although not necessary. Is it possible to support multiple tanks using just one pump? If so, which pump(s) do you recommend?

<br>

<br>

Also what size sump would be needed to support two 6x2x2 tanks? I was hoping to use an existing 3'x14"x20" tank as a sump? Is this suitable or would I need something larger?

<br>

<br>

Also in your experience, would I be better off running the tanks off separate sumps or one large sump? I am hoping to run everything off one sump to cut down on maintenance time and equipment costs if possible.

<br>

<br>

Can someone help me?

</DIV><H2>Replies »</H2><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: elise007</STRONG><BR><BR>No reason why you can't use the one pump at all or the one sump.

<br>

<br>

Main thing you obviously need to recall is if using the one pump and sump then the water willbe identical in both so you can't have Americans in one and Africans in the other tank.

<br>

<br>

You could, IMO, have one tank of Malawais and one of Tang's though.

<br>

<br>

I use a trickle filter system in my fish room for all my cichlid tanks and currently run about 1,500 litres through a single trickle filter of similar size to the one you are poroposing. The pump i use for that is a Pondmaster 4200 and it is pumping back through piping into 9 tanks simulataneaoulsy and up to a height on three of those tanks of about 85 inches with two other layers below that.

<br>

<br>

I also have a least a spnge filter in each tank but that is more to stir up the water a bit, fry to feed off and backup in case the sump runs dry, or the pump blocks up or a tank leaks.

<br>

<br>

For some reason i find that although the total volume of return water does not vary much i often over a week or two have to alter slightly the return taps to keep the current even.

<br>

<br>

With only two returns you should have far less difficulty.

<br>

<br>

I would also suggest that you amke sure that the returns out of the tanks are through a weir arrangement in a corner and out the bootom rahter than through a hole in the side as this could cause overflow problems with that current.

<br>

<br>

I would also suggest you set up the two tanks and the filter and fill them up with water and then see if you can't do a deal with someone to let you try a 4200 Pondmaster or an equivelant pump and see what the return water flow is like.

<br>

<br>

Many of the sponsors have multiple pumps on offer and could probably assit i would of thought.

<br>

<br>

Just some thoguhts, hope it helps.

<br>

<br>

Mark

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Mark has some great ideas there but I'd like to add the following;

<br>

<br>

2x 6x2x2's I would be running 2 separate systems or one considerably larger than the one you are proposing - You'd want a turnover rate several times 1500lph! I'd suggest something of the order of 4500lph.

<br>

<br>

As for a pump, ehh well considering the legalities and the problems SCF is having lately, it's hard to say too much but hmm... *cough* Pondmaster not whisper quiet *cough*. 'nuff said for the moment. I'm in the process of finding some pumps myself for some wet/dry sumps. It depends how much money you are willing to spend. The Pondmaster range are excellent value but you will need two of the PM4200's minimum to run the 6x2x2's (and use efficient plumbing), otherwise if that is too expensive you could try Ben from AOA for two king-4's. I wouldn't go bigger than that size as they start to get quite noisy IMO. Personally, if you have the money, I'd do what I'm doing - the new Rainbow Lifegard (now pentair aquatics?) Quiet One pumps are due in the country probably by the end of November. It will be worth the wait for these as they are indeed whisper quiet and provide excellent performance - whilst being both submersible and in-line. They also come in 4 sizes now instead of the one size that they used to come in. You may still need two of the larger ones to do a system that big however if it's moderate to heavily stocked cichlid tanks. Be prepared they won't be cheap, I'm anticipating being in the $300-500 range per pump of the larger models. General rule of thumb, if you want high performance and whisper quiet, you have to be prepared to pay the $$, if you want low performance and whisper quiet that's achievable with low cost, and if u want pure performance and dont care about noise then you can also get something fairly cheap. Up to you

<br>

<br>

Cheers,

<br>

Adam

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>hi,

<br>

I have a similar setup in my fish room (which my poor stressed kids used to call the family room).

<br>

<br>

It's the one on the right hand side of this photo:

<br>

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It has a 6x2x18" tank on the top and a 6x2x2 tank in the middle, both draining to a 3x18"x16" sump at the bottom left of the rack and currently returning via a sunsun 3500 pump (from Ben).

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I would recommend a bigger sump than I have, I should have used a 3x2x16" which would just barely fit fo me. The smaller tank has limited space for media and (more importantly) water.

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While faster flow rates are wonderful things I'm struggling to keep the noise levels form this one to tolerable levels. The sunsun 3500 l/hour pump is imporessively silent but the water is not. I'm getting quite a bit of water turbulance noise that I'm still trying to quieten down (the rack has only been set up for a couple of weeks). I only had a 2700 litre/hour pump when it first went up as that was what I was runing the 6x2 with (it's the fastest pump I can safely run without overloading the siphon overflow unit). Suffice to say that the 2700 was far too slow to run both tanks.

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I'm trying the 3500l/h unit at the moment but if I can't drop the noise levels down will consider using a 3200 l/hour I have in the cupboard and putting some powerheads in the tank for circulation.

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Hope that helps or at least gives you some things to think about,

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Laurie

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<br></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: approximate</STRONG><BR><BR>Wow.. thanks guys for the insight.

Much appreciated. Now for some more silly questions.

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Mark (or anyone else that knows), assuming that each tank has a corner weir where water can flow through the hole down the bottom of the tank, how would I reduce the amount of noise generated as the water drops down the weir? Is stocking the weir with bioballs and sponges sufficient to eliminate the "waterfall" noise? Assuming that they are, do the bioballs and sponges still need to be maintained regularly? What I meant by this is, do I still need to worry about rinsing the sponges in used water every couple of weeks (to get rid of scum build up) or can I simply chuck them out when they get really dirty? Considering that most of the bacteria will be in the sump or on the bioballs in the weir (not sure if this is a valid assumption or not), I imagine that it will be ok to chuck out the dirty sponges?

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Adam (if you don't mind), can you share with us your experience with the Rainbow Lifeguard pump (cost, ease of installation, performance etc) when you get them?

I hope you'll still let us know even if it turns out to be a negative experience as it'll be difficult (not to mention expensive) to draw conclusions on certain products if product reviews are only allowed to be published if they do not contain negative comments.

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Laurie, your setup is amazing.

I wish my missus would come to her senses and let me buy more tanks.

I can see a PVC pipe on the left corner of each tank but I can't see a weir anywhere. I am assuming that water from the sump goes through this pipe (??) but how does the excess water leave the tank? Do you have a hole drilled on the back of each tank for this purpose? If so, have you had any problems with water overflowing the tanks etc? To avoid flooding our living room with water, I am wondering if anyone out there is kind enough to share their experiences on their plumbing setup (close up pics and step-by-step instructions would be very nice).

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Lastly, is it possible to spend zero time cleaning tanks and more time enjoying our setup? I have read articles whereby people have actually automated their setup in such a way that they don't even have to do water changes!

Does anyone here actually have this setup? If so, do you mind sharing your experiences with us?

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My current pethate is siphoning out big poos from the bottom of my tanks as my filters (Fluval 404 & Eheim 2217 in a 4x2x2 tank) can't seem to clear these suckers out!

What's the trick in getting rid of this unsightly mess - without siphoning?

As you can see, I am really lazy and want to spent minimal time cleaning the tank if possible.

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Thanks again for your contributions.

<p></P></DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: c2105208</STRONG><BR><BR>Put it this way mate, if I have a positive experience with the new RL pumps, you'll definately hear about it. If I have a negative experience then I'm not likely to say much of course - remember "

" hahaha! However I can't imagine myself having problems - I've used many of RL products from their modular range, and have seen their mag drive pumps and their previous model quiet one pumps in action and heard nothing but positives about it all from other owners - Hard to imagine how an 'improved' model could be any worse!

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As far as limiting noise goes, I have just reconstructed my sump for my 5x2x2 as well as my weir design and am running around 3500 lph through it. The water sound is virtually non-existent. Very gently trickling sound that you have to be quite close to the sump (head next to it virtually) to hear. If you want photos/drawings then feel free to email me and I'll work something out for you. The drawings are in AutoCAD format but I could easily make a pdf version for you if you are interested. I spent a great deal of time in my design process - the main criteria was to create an extremely efficient design, ease of use and very easy to maintain, whilst being virtually noise-free. So far I seem to have achieved that!

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As far as spending zero time doing the cleaning - yeah, you can hire someone to do it for you

Seriously though, it is possible to automate such things as water changes and dosing and feeding - however regular siphoning there's little way of automating - at some stage you will have to clean the gravel (even if you have a way of agitating the surface with a powerhead as others have tried, it will build up in the bottom layers eventually), and you still have to clean out or replace the filter media. Zero-maintenance tanks are virtually impossible to create, however some aspects you can automate as I've said.

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Cheers,

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Adam

</DIV><DIV id=Atextbox><P><STRONG>Author: chorrylan</STRONG><BR><BR>hi approximate,

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the pvc pipes you can see at the left hand end of the tanks is the drain down to the sump. Water comes in at the top right hand corner and out through those pvc pipes. I have a 40mm hole in the base and a length of 32mm pvc up to where I want the water level.

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To quieten down a wier/return setup check out durso standpipes. You should find some pictures via google.

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I don't think you will ever get out of cleaning your tank but bristlenose and mystery snails help to keep the glass clean and sand sifters help to break up the crap and get it into suspension so it can get carted off to the filters.

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Cheers,

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Laurie

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I am mega confused with how these work. I see they take up a bit of space in the tank and yeah thats all i can get. I need diagrams or detailed descriptions of how they work. When you use side drops you need to heat the room right. Well then how do insulate. The room has thin walls and 4 windows that are most of the walls. It is a sun room thing. Maybe just stick styrofoam to the walls. It gets pretty cold here at winter. I have seen some people with no heater in there room such as mawfish. How can i do this. I want to have cheap side drop filtration going and minimal heaters as i do not want the bill going sky high. Maybe side drops and no heating just room heating. lol. Please help with understanding. Also tell me how good side drops are if you have them. Some people have powerheads aswell right?

Cheers

Cameron

Reading some of the posts started today got me thinking. Is 2000lt per hour into a 6x2x2 enough for a colony of Tropheus?

How many times do you turn your tank volume over?

Are you doing it for water quality or for water flow?